This is Helicobacter Pylori:
It’s a bacterium that lives in the stomach. About 40% of Americans are infected with it. In most people it does nothing harmful, but for some people it is involved in the production of stomach ulcers. Treatment with antibiotics that target H. Pylori will cure and then prevent the recurrence of stomach ulcers.
What has this to do with Morgellons?
Firstly, the story of the discovery of the connection between H. Pylori and ulcers is a rather romantic one. Scientists originally were unsure what caused ulcers, but though stress or eating spicy foods might contribute. One maverick scientist though that bacteria might be involved after a colleague found some H. Pylori via biopsies of people who had ulcers. This was just 25 years ago, in 1981.
His peers though this idea was crazy, as bacteria could not establish colonies in the harsh acidic environment of the stomach. To prove them wrong, the scientist drank a bunch of the bacteria, and got sick. He then found that H. Pylori was living in his stomach. Subsequent research demonstrated a clear link between H.Pylori infection and Ulcers. The scientist went on to win the Nobel prize for his work.
Mary Leitao, the founder of the Morgellons Research foundation has this to say about H. Pylori.:
My take on why this organism has not been identified is similar to what happened with the discovery of Helicobacter pylori and ulcer disease.
So, is there any similarity here?
No.
In 1981 Peptic ulcer disease was very well documented. Several million cases of peptic ulcers were diagnosed each year. The clinical manifestations of Peptic ulcers were clearly defined. A clear diagnosis could be given. The existence of the ulcer could be determined via X-Ray and endoscope. Effective pallative treatments were available. They simply did not know what caused them, or how to prevent them.
In 2006, there is no scientific documentation on Morgellons. No cases have been documented in a clinical setting. No diagnosis of Morgellons can be given, no standards exist for determining if the disease even exists. Since we don’t know if it exists as a distinct disease, we don’t have any treatments for it. You cannot find a causative agent for something that is not defined.
The first step towards finding a treatment for a new disease would be to establish that the disease actually exists. This has not been done for Morgellons. How can you tell if you have cured something if there is no standard for saying if you have it? With ulcers, the connection is clear, you can tell if someone has an ulcer with endoscopic examination. You can tell if they have H. Pylori infection with a sample and culture. Statistical studies show that without H. Pylori there are no ulcers.
Since there is no standard for what constitutes “Morgellons”, there is no standard for what constitutes “cured of Morgellons”. If the Morgellons Research Foundation wishes to be taken seriously, they must first take the step of clearly demonstrating that the disease actually exists.
Then we can move on, and examine the effectiveness of tests and treatments.
Mary Leitao, you can’t identify a causitive organism before you identify the disease.
We know what ulcers are. What is Morgellons?
It’s not going to be easy for Mary Leitao to prove the existance of a non-disease. She borrowed symptoms from every real disease under the sun. It’s no wonder that half the world fits some of her ridiculous criteria. If the situation weren’t so sad, it would be laughable. When I first read the transcript of Mary’s interview, comparing herself to the real scientist that discovered the cause of ulcers, I thought it was one of the most ridiculous miscomparisons I had ever read about. It’s obvious that she has delusions of grandeur.
She either doesn’t care who she hurts on her way to getting the Nobel Peace Prize, or else she’s just too dumb to realize the harm she’s causing. She couldn’t possibly be her own test subject, like the scientist that drank the bacteria. In the first place, there are no Morgellons pathogens to ingest. In the second place, she already has the disease, Delusions of Parasitosis (DOP), or the closest thing to it, Munhausens by Proxy. That’s all this disease is, delusions, nothing more, and nothing less.
What is Morgellons?
Morgellons is a broad spectrum delusional disorder!
Tallcotton,
This is a little of topic, but I was back in the archive reading when I ran across you saying this to someone named Tony:
Hysteria is spreading like wildfire about an all inclusive set of symptoms and the sufferers are self-diagnosing these conditions as “Morgellons Disease”. They are experimenting on themselves, their family members, and their pets with dangerous substances.
********************************
You are too funny. Have a good one- I am going to read all the archives… good reading :0
I am sorry when I see all this morgellons hype I just laugh…Well actually cry. I know trying to explain to you over the internet how sane I am is a worthless cause..But Let me qualify my firends know me as the most have a grip on things type of person they know…I have had this skin problem since coming back from mexico….Yes there are a lot of messed up poeple on the board (most of them female)…But there are a lot of messed up poeple in the country in general….You top that average with the semi night mere and and in a higher percentage of female and there ya go….lymebusters..You see at one time I was kinda like most of them….You know beacuase this condition gives the sensation of the crawling feeling..It would be easy for a laymen to go looking in that direction when he recieves no medical help…after years I figured out no insects involved….I had to go back in time…20 years when I was 19 years old..and recieved my diagnosis of sarcoidosis after 10 days in the hospital…Ive seen 4 others of that board diagnosed with sarcoidosis…something may have been in the skin…I think it may have been cutenious larval migrans…from my wife feeding a sick looking donkey on my beach towell in san jose del cabo mexico…this sent my immune system into sarcoid overdrive that I am still dealing with today…..Before you dismiss the disease…reasearch sarcoidosis…..and the difficulty in diagnosis…I believe there is a level of sub clinincal sarcoidosis going on here. and these poeple need help.
William – what makes you think everyone has the same thing? Maybe sarcoidosis is related to your symptoms, but do you think everyone on Lymebusters has the same thing? Do you even have fibers?
William,
I know you. Nice handle! It’s nice to know that you’re finally paying attention to your Sarcoidosis diagnosis. Smileykins tried so hard to get you to do that, for a long time, and you just wouldn’t listen. It sounds like you have a better understanding of your immune system than you used to. I read where they finally yanked Dr. Schwartz license. Are you still following his regimen with the Septra DS? Good luck with the CDC.
Tall Cotton
“Do you even have fibers?” Gosh Michael what are you saying? I thought “we all have fibers.” Why the silly question?
Sure, we all have fibers on our skin, and in our lesions, it’s impossible not to. We just don’t all consider them to be a symptom (or cause) of our health problems.
Well good morning to you friends!
If you don’t “consider them to be a symptom (or cause) of our health problems,” then I am unclear why you ask the question.
Because Morgellons believers believe that fibers are a key symptom of the disease. I wanted to know if William H. Smith believed he had Morgellons – or at least the same thing as the Morgellons believers have.
*I* don’t consider my fibers to be a symptom or cause of *my* health problems. But I know other people feel different. I was trying to establish what William thinks about fibers.
Aherah, you don’t have fibers now do you? At least not fibers you think are emerging from your body?
I never really know when they will be significant, or I’d have video taped them for you. Maybe today, maybe not. I don’t really want to spend my life camera in hand waiting for the moment. On the other hand, I realize we’d be having a different conversation if you saw that video. If I don’t have them today, I will another day. I just don’t know when. If I could predict them, I’d have removed them in the presence of my doctor. Next, I’d have made a trip to the CDC, etc. It just doesn’t work that way. In addition, I think that the fibers are not the most troubling element of this disease; they are merely an indication that something is wrong.
You should have asked papasmurf that question.
So Willy, do you have fibers emerging from your body?
Actually, rather than assuming that each person that claims he has Morgellons is misdirected about their situation, why don’t you ask them why they think they have it? Rather than apply one person’s response to the group (which you have been doing), allow each person to give you his/her own answer. Allow them to show you their logic rather than assuming that there is none from the get-go.
“Why do you think you have Morgellons?”
Great idea.
Aherah, why do you think you have Morgellons?
I thought you had heard enough from me but, since you ask, I’ll put together a well-thought-out response for you. I couldn’t do the topic justice with the five minutes I have right now.
I’ll be back!
I look forward to it. And to save arguments, perhaps you could start by defining what you mean by “Morgellons”, and if anyone else shares this definition.
I’ll accept “Morgellons, as defined by the MRF case definition”, but maybe you can improve on that, as most people consider that rather vague.
It blows my mind and boggles my brain, to consider the shape her mind is in.
It’s been written…
“Leitao’s motivations come from her 6 year old boy Drew. Four years ago, he began to feel the itch. ‘He started describing bugs. He said, mommy, bugs, and he would scratch.’ Then came the sores that shed the fibers. Mary took drew to the doctor and the doctor said it was nothing to worry about. ‘I was going to find an answer, or I was going to have to take my life, that’s all there was to it.’”
This is my interpretation of what happened:
* She thought her 2 year old was describing “the presence of real bugs”
* She thought his eczematous skin was “sprouting fibers”, when it was only natural for fibers to adhere to his oozing skin
* She continued obsessing, after being assured it was nothing serious, taking him to see a dermatologist, toting along her own ultra-violet lamp and hand-held microscope
* Humiliated, she rejected her son’s eczema diagnosis, and, apparently, discontinued follow-up after only trying one topical prescription that she claimed did not help her son (surely, the derm doc opined on her presentation during that appointment)
* Somebody removed a piece of that baby’s chapped bottom lip that had fuzz stuck to it, studied it like a ?, and photographed it
* A big deal was made out of a broken blister on a child’s heel that had sock fuzz stuck to it, and photos were taken
* A wad of lint and debris entangled in some hair was photographed
* She continued on with her compulsive obsession (I shudder), and concluded that the closest thing to resemble what she was going forth on a mission to prove as being what her son really had, was a 400 year old “disease”
*She created a website and “a morgellons research foundation” in honor of her little boy, with the hope of finding a cure for him
* Certain people, from around the globe, easily identify with what’s on her web site
*This is actually hard to put into words but, children don’t get DOP. Mommy has something wrong, making her misinterpret her child’s skin symptoms and get mad at his doctors.
* These people recognize it right away, of course, having all been diagnosed with DOP
* Oh, but wait…OH SHIT!!! See, by gosh, they knew they were right, all along, and that they really do have a dreadful disease!!! That’s why all their idiotic doctors acted that way and didn’t give them any satisfaction.
If you read about it that’s typical for DOP patients. Delusions are “REAL LIFE” to them.
Mary has more things than one motivating her, though. Here is that quote, again, at the end of a Reno Gazette-Journal story from May 30, 2006:
“The saying is ‘the disease is the patient,’ she said. ‘Only those willing to look outside the book move from technician to scientist.’” (Ahem. Methinks she’s gotten quite a feather in her hat already.)
Mysterious skin illness gains more recognition
Okay, so she’s hellbent. Oh, but yeah, remember, this is all for her little boy named Drew. (Um-hmm)
Well, whatever happened with little Drew? He just remained frozen in time on her web site, at age 2, over the past 4 years. Her “morgellons disease” went on without him, morphing into something far removed from anything having to do with his skin condition.
There’s never been a pathogen to begin with. Drew had eczema, and is apparently doing well, now. In her madness, though, her “morgellons disease” has mutated, for sure. She’s added more symptoms, composing it as she’s gone along, just like Michael has revealed. It’s hard saying when she’ll stop, as long as people register and tell what their health situations are. (Oh, I just had a funny thought….nevermind.)
Ninety-five percent of the registered members having been diagnosed with DOP is a substantial figure. As we know from looking into their world, it’s very, very, disturbing. All of those behaviors are nothing new, it’s just that it was kept in the shadows before Mary Leitao brought DOP mainstream. I’d wondered, all along, how she could care so much about the morgie people at Lymebusters, like they all professed. I “get it” now, that she knew to leave them be. They see her as caring, because she “believes them” and they are a big benefit to her. What we don’t know, and what we may never know, is how this situation can be remedied.
I was so stunned to suddenly read, just last month, that Ms. Leitao has two older children, and, of course, they have their mom’s “morgellons disease”. (I wonder if she has late-stage lyme disease. I’ve read some very interesting things concerning the neuropsychiatric symptoms of it, and munchausen-by-proxy syndrome associations.)
Mary Leitao says, “The fact that the disease is finally being researched gives us hope, but you can only push so hard with the medical establishment,” she said. “These things have to be done methodically, and that takes a lot of time.”
She said CDC officials have promised to form a task force to investigate the illness, but states haven’t been told to track cases.
“It’s frustrating,” she said. “There’s no structure in place to gather the data.”
In my opinion, the MRF will continue their unscientific, and unethical practices in treating patients. Without question, their ignorance in not following guidelines for prescribing antibiotics will continue to give rise to more and more drug-resistant super-pathogens.
I’m sure plenty of morgies are victims of late-stage lyme disease.
The psychological effects of Lyme disease
I’m sure some morgies have serious staph infections such as MRSA.
Bad
I have a clearer picture on why they ignore their other, legitimate, physical health diagnoses, too.
But I’m more sure than anything that “morgellons disease” is synonymous with DOP, and that these people seriously need medication and counselling. I’m sure that being hellbent in a unreal existence, though, is all that matters to them. They will prove they were right, at any cost, because they’ve told people that they’ve had something all along. Mary Leitao handed them over a precious gift. To them, she really is a saint.
Smileykins, a couple of weeks ago someone posted that her new and wonderful doctor had diagnosed her with “Meersa” (MRSA) which she said was some kind of nasal infection. She was thrilled to have a diagnosis, but do you suppose she’ll end up disaoppointed when she finds out it’s not a new and bizarre pathogen, but rather a well-known and well-documented infection?
This same person declared that she was going to take her own life and insist that her cause of death be listed as Morgellons. She’s an attorney, so she knows you can do that.
Well, no. You cannot declare your own cause of death, else insurance companies would be paying claims for “Death by nagging” and “Death by boredom” rather than rightfully declining to pay out for suicides.
I can’t link to the thread at the moment, as Lymebusters has gone back into covert, lockdown mode.
Hi Jeezelouise. I read it. These people, so far, as long as I’ve known (and yes, I’m generalizing, but I know what I see on there, same as anyone, and that’s all we have to form our opinions on, afterall), have never seemed as though they quite know how to look anything up on their legitimate diagnoses. Also, many of them pose questions that they have access to finding the answers to, right at their very own fingertips. Their minds are not well, and that is not their fault.
William,
Hello. I’m real proud of you, but they’ll keep sucking you back in.
Delusional Parasitosis is often classified into three types according to the underlying condition:
1. Primary Psychotic: the mind needs some outside assistance
2. Secondary Functional: again, the mind needs some outside assistance
3. Secondary Organic: the body needs repaired to heal the mind
until you walk a mile in the shoes of a person who has suffered from this NOW RECOGNIZED DISEASE (its amazing how some of you discuss something you’ve never had nor seen as if you KNOW it doesn’t exist) you should STFU. you have no evidence, nothing. you are only here to be skeptical of the work of ther people. if i had a dollar for everytime somebody on this page says “as long as i’ve known,” or “i THINK” i’d be a rich girl.
but it wouldn’t get rid of my disease.
how many of you live in florida or the gulf coast? if you don’t, shut up.
how many of you know a sufferer or have seen the lesions for yourself? if you haven’t, shut up.
morgellons disease is NOT delusional parasitosis. how do i know? because i had it and never ONCE thought i had a parasite. i’m a registered nurse and attorney (no fool) and have been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel, lupus, and several other diseases because physicians could not figure out what it was. i had no lesions.
until now. thank god that one happened to come up WHILE i was in the hospital for testing… nobody EVER treated me as if i was insane, because i did not think that i had a parasite, and had NO IDEA what morgellons disease was.
nothing is more intellectually unevolved than a a person without curiosity who never believes anything that he does not understand. you might as well be creationists who say that fossils aren’t real because you haven’t seen them.
idiots make the world go round. they clean toilets, pave roads, and work on blogs. they don’t invent anything, don’t create anything, and will ALWAYS be the first to criticize anyone who does.
Click on the name “Smileykins”, why don’t cha.
and aherah is right. the fibers are the most INSIGNIFICANT thing about the disease. i’ve had six lesions. none of them made my muscles quiver so badly that i could not walk.
but the disease has.
>>they don’t invent anything, don’t create anything, and will ALWAYS be the first to criticize anyone who does.
I create a lot of things. I do not create diseases, though.
I don’t think you have delusional parasitosis. I’ve never said that. In fact, I quite often make the point that Morgellons is not delusional parasitosis (and it’s not always neurotic excoriations either).
I just think that “Morgellons” describes a large number of conditions, and there is no evidence that there is on specific disease.
Obviously what you have is very real, I cannot pretend to even imagine what it might be, but since you’ve been diagnosed with several MUPS, then it seems like the doctors don’t know either. How do you know what you have?
If you have no lesions, then why do you think you have Morgellons? DO you have fibers emerging from your skin?
If there was a disease with thousands of sufferers, where fibers emerge from the skin, then why is it so hard to get video evidence?
And what do you mean by “NOW RECOGNIZED DISEASE?”
Now, excuse me for being so brash, but Michael is the only person in charge of censoring anyone here. If you don’t consider yourself “a fool”, do not go speaking on something that you haven’t looked into before ordering me to not voice my opinions.
You’re “a registered nurse and attorney (no fool) and have been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, fibromyalgia, irritable bowel, lupus, and several other diseases…”?
Yes, and you don’t feel that’s a helluvanuff reasons that you’re ill? Has a doctor ever diagnosed the dreaded DOP for you?
The last I saw out of Abhorah, she’s trying to connect fibrocystic ovaries to “morgellons” for cryin’ out loud. That is a real issue, like her swelling and chest pain. Let it go, though, let it go. It’s all “morgellons”.
Correction: “polycystic”
The last I saw out of Abhorah” Now who is preoccupied with whom? In the words of Jeeselouise, “why do you care what I think?” “Let it go, though, let it go.” But you can’t.
Michael, how can I explain why I think I have Morgellons when I know it will initiate the type bizarre display of emotionalism Smileykins is known for. I don’t really want to do that again. I prefer my efforts work toward a productive understanding of what’s going on. I don’t want to play with her or be played by her, so I’ll refrain from answering that question, for now.
“Obviously what you have is very real, I cannot pretend to even imagine what it might be, but since you’ve been diagnosed with several MUPS, then it seems like the doctors don’t know either.”
No, the doctors don’t know..that is for sure. I’ve been down that road of multiple diagnosis that seemed to change from week-to-week. At seventeen, I learned that the doctors DON’T know everything. I’m ok with that as long as we can just admit it.
“How do you know what you have?”
We don’t. I appreciate that you concede that it’s not dop, which indicates that you must believe doctors who blanketly label us are doing us a disservice. Perhaps Morgellons is simply a name given to a condition in which fibers emerge from flesh, and perhaps the brain fog, muscle pain, lesions, etc are all just a coincidence. Between some of the stories I’ve read on Lymebusters and the info gathered on MRF website, I could make a long list of all of the “coincidences,” but “I don’t believe in coincidences.” (quote from my favorite schizophrenic–John Nash).
I don’t believe in coincidences either. But I do believe in statistics. Out of 300 Million people, some of them are going to have a collection of similar symptoms from a variety of illnesses. The internet allows them to find each other and form an artificial grouping.
You have a mixed variety of illnesses. What is there to suggest you have Morgellons? Lots of conditions can explain the symptoms.
Nash said a lot of things. When he said “I don’t believe in coincidences”, he meant he did not believe in being surprised by coincidences. A mathematician, he knew coincidences inevitably happen. Maybe Morgellons is just an inevitable coincidence of symptoms to which the belivers have mistakenly attributed meaning, when all it is is a coincidence.
I wrote on this before:
http://morgellonswatch.wordpress.com/2006/04/16/the-chain-of-chance-introduction/
If I were to recount my story to you of when I was first infected, it would sound similar to the story of Brandi Koch (Swelling…rashes…fibers…). If I were to describe what I see now, it would sound like the accounts of Cindy Casey (fibers in all bodily fluids). How other people could have experienced exactly what I experienced (even the variety of misdiagnosis) is too much for me to call “coincidence.” That’s just a sampling of where my opinion comes from.
We Shed These Regularly
Aherah, you are being very vague. Swelling and rashes are very common symptoms, shared by millions, of course some other people will have the same combination that you have, and of course they will get the same set of diagnoses. “Fibers in all bodily fluids” (blood, sweat, saliva, urine?) does NOT sounds like what everyone else is describing.
I’ll explain more when I can. About the Nash thing–I shouldn’t have phrased it the way I did. I don’t think people should be defined by their illnesses; I certainly wouldn’t want to be defined by mine.
Back to life.
“Swelling and rashes are very common symptoms, shared by millions, of course some other people will have the same combination that you have, and of course they will get the same set of diagnoses.”
I never had an allergic reaction to anything in my life before I had this. It wasn’t a little swelling, my whole body swelled; I was near passing out with hot flashes. Following that couple of weeks my body was engulfed in a rash that prevented me from sleeping for months. No medications even began to aid me. Then, for the first time in my life, I began to see fibers emerge from the itchy areas. If I always had fibers, why was I only noticing them now? No, this wasn’t like anything I had ever seen before. The only illnesses I know of that produce fibers are those that involve tropical fungi.
“Fibers in all bodily fluids” (blood, sweat, saliva, urine?)
I’m sorry, I’m being too broad here. I’ve only seen fibers in the bodily fluids that I don’t have to observe in a laboratory setting under a microscope (like spuctum). I also see it in another type of fluid, but I’m not going to go there. I can only say that I never saw fibers anywhere on my body prior to the swelling and rashes. I believe Cindy Casey has investigated this more thoroughly.
Nash–accidental humanist?
Anybody who has had it start on or near their jaw ie Tallcotton
http://www.emedicine.com/derm/byname/oral-cutaneous-fistulas.htm
[Edited 7/4/2006 7:07AM by Michael : replaced large cut-and-paste with link]
Thus far, Morgellons research has been junk science.
Papasmurf,
When I posted I didn’t realize that you had posted just above me. My comment wasn’t directed at the information on actinomycosis. I was referring to the many photographs and personal stories kept by the Morgellons believers. Welcome back and Happy Independence Day.
Tall Cotton
ok,
This is my take on IT.
The fiber Disease, be it disease, syndrome or whatever does exist, i know, cos i got it. Yep, when you have it you know it’s real. You see people you spend time with start to scratch and slap themselves, you notice over time their skin becomes so dry it starts flaking, small coccons, appear in the hair and on their clothing. All the stuff that happened to me when i first got it. Yep it is so real its indisputable, unless of course you haven’t got it. then this story just sounds self-indulgent or psychotic or simply sad. But thats ok, thats all part of the richly textured beauty of humanity. there are plenty of idiots and assholes, but then, there’s a a few reasonable people still left and they make up for the others.
From my observation deck, i see an interesting phenomon. On this site we have a saviour, a self-appointed saviour, protecting us from the evils of the MRF, supported by a band of camp followers willing to fawn at the feet of their saviour rather then critically look at the situation and make up their own minds. And on the site that spawned this site, the MRF, what have we got? A saviour! surrounded by another group of devotees, willing to swallow it all hook, line and sinker, without a bothering to consider the validity of the saviours absurdities. Which is the real saviour? Neither! is morgellonswatch as absurd as MRF? You bet! Do both sites have unstated agendas? obviously! What is the contribution of each to the discussion of “The Fiber Disease”? nought.
Unfortunately the Lymebusters-morgellons forum has been closed even to viewing only to all but members in the last few days. apparently for “security reasons and to protect our members”. An interesting development given that some of the most regular posters have made hysterical claims about being followed, having mysterious phone calls directed to their homes, cars sabotaged, harrassed stalked etc etc etc. Closing the forum to all but the inner circle is not necessarily a bad thing though as the discussion was becoming increasingly insular and absurd and less and less people posted there due to the, lets call it overbearing nature of the ‘senior members’. An example would be, if one posted a msg to the forum thats was out of left field or challenged the dominant paradigm, the msg was immediately responded to by a senior member, who would politely and patronisingly poo poo any new idea and redirect the poster back to the abridged discussion of the forum. if you’re not familiar with the technique, read Noam Chomskys’, “Manufacturing Consent”, if you get through that one, then read “Crowds and Power” by Elias Canetti. If you get through that you might as well knock over Niccolo Machiavellis “The Prince” and then you should be able to recognise the dynamics at play in this debate. It’s all about control, control of thought. not some grand conspiracy hatched by a secret group of the ultra rich, just selfish, adolescent bickering along the lines of “im right”, “no, im right”. Kiddie shit!
So snap out of morgellonswatch, I dont need any more saviours. In fact i dont need any! If you have a genuine interest in The fiber disease, as opposed to an axe to grind with MRF, then why not try using your powers for good rather then, well whatever it is you are trying to prove with this site. Or, to put it another way, expand your research and you will soon find, that MRF, is just a first port of call for people who have this condition, i suspect anyone with a modicum of common sense soon realises that MRF, are just the visible tip of the iceberg, and like an iceberg, to see the full extent of the situation you have to go deeper. For those who fritter away their hours on this site or MRFs’ – nope im not one of them – checkout http://www.biology-online.org/biology-forum/about1958.html start at page one and when you get to page 220, let me know if you think this is an artificial phenomenon generated from the imagination and energy of one individual.
Im sure this won’t be enough for you to, as James Brown used to say, ” give it up or turn it loose”. but at least i tried. I had too. Its hard enough to get a serious consideration of this condition without losers like morgellonswatch and mrf, muddying the waters.
Dear Hugh,
I do so appreciate what you wrote…..I just very recently started to read this morgellons watch blog. Although I disagree with them on it being a delusion-for I know first hand it’s not, I still LOVE this blog. They really are hilarious. I’m certainly not being facetious-well that’s an oxy moron, but you know what I mean…..I think the laughter I get from reading their post actually boost up my endorphines- hell probably my cd4 count too.
Hey, How can I deregister with the MRF??? I don’t want any part of them-I don’t want any part of anything…..I want to be out of everything…..
And for the record, I said some ugly things about the Lymebuster site and that was a mean thing to do. I should have kept my sagacious comments to my self…..I will admit, I do think that site has some valuable information
on it…..I just wish I would have read the health board tips page and never posted a damn thing on the morgellons forum of it.
Yeah, Hugh R Delusional, I noticed where they shut the guest out too. I was alerted by someone via email…..they were just wondering if it was “their” computer not being able to access it. So when I tried, I got the same info you said “for security reasons and for the safety of our members”……………………………..
You know, I’m not going to talk bad about them, but golly gee….I was’nt going to hurt them…..I promise! For it was I that had 3 cars demolished…
and for the record…..if anybody wants to see proof…..when and if I get my car out of the garage, I will happily post my reciept. Yes, for the auto’s wires to be fixed…..it is only going to cost me $3553.00
And I agree Hugh, the Morgellons watch bloggers should lay off the DOP
ragging…..but…….I would miss the laughs if they did…..
Have a good day…..
Hugh, thank you for your feedback. I’m familiar with the Biology Online thread, but I don’t really see it as being much different to Lymebusters. Lots of posting of vague theories and treatments, and a huge amount of irrelevant “research” (googling interesting sounding words). I have actually read a lot of the thread, but not all of it, perhaps here is something on it I missed?
However, I DON’T think Morgellons is: “an artificial phenomenon generated from the imagination and energy of one individual”, far from it. I think it is a mistake that has simply taken on a life of its own.
The mistake is simply that people believe that they all have something in common. I think a lot of people, if not all of them, are simply mistaking environmental fibers for something mysterious emerging from their body.
The most common argument I hear is “I know it is real, because I have it!”, often coupled with “You can’t dismiss this, since you don’t have it”.
These arguments hold no water. Many people claim to have been abducted by Aliens, and use the same reasoning. However, without ever having met these people, I don’t believe that the vast majority of them were abducted by aliens. There is no physical evidence that it happened, and the descriptions indicate well known social and psychological phenomena.
While it is quite possible that someone has been abducted by aliens, I’ve seen no convincing evidence. Long threads of rational sounding people discussing it on internet forums do not change things at all.
I try not to discuss individual cases, specifically because I don’t know that person, and I can’t examine their evidence, except through the dark medium of the internet.
Instead I focus on published and aggregated evidence, and the claims made by the MRF and the media. I point out things that are wrong. I point out errors in reasoning. I point out things that have been overlooked.
If you find errors in my site, then let me know, and I will correct them. I want to be right, and I’ll follow the facts wherever they lead, even if this shows I was wrong in the past.
well, Michael that was nice of you to say that….and, yes, you should really go visit the fiber disease forum….they have this infamous TAM TAM
person you would have a field day with….Now talk about this websites ratings going up….whew….straight to the top…..go visit and tell us what you think……look for TamTam”s postings. You will love them.
Happy 4th! Maybe old betsyross from Lbusters is having a good day today too…..
Michael, I suppose there is such a thing akin to “selective hearing”, that I’ll call “selective viewing”. I don’t think you could be any more clear about what your blog is for, aside from a giant mission statement page that has to be read before entering.
When something is genuine, it stands to scrutiny. We all have differences of opinion, and most people respect our freedoms to express them. The dissension brought here must be seen for what it is, of course. That, alone, is more helpful to illustrate “morgellons disease” than most any of us who are regular participants on your blog could ever lend justice to.
An ulcer is a symptom of a disease process.
“Morgellons disease” isn’t a disease with a pathogen.
It is a symptom, in and of itself.
What is being called “morgellons disease” is a manifestation of other disease states.
Naturally, anyone knows when I say this, or anything else I say, that it’s my opinion. I’ve somehow been elevated to the status of a deity in the past that continues to follow me. How did I come by it? Beats the living crap out of me.
Papasmurf,
I had some problems which, in retrospect, I had determined to have begun on the jawline. But when you say “it”, it sounds like you are referring to something a lot of people have in common. The commonality, in my opinion, is that we are all human, with the exception of the pets, that some Morgellons believers think also have “it”. As humans, we have very similar immune systems. We are all members of this world, and we all have a somewhat similar environment. I’m only one opinion, but I do not believe there is an “it”.
Tall Cotton
I think, perhaps, “it”, is the “experience”.
Yes, and “it” was hell.
Can one have an experience without a cause?
What goes into the makings of an experience?
Is it always something tangible?
MRSA infections spreading to animals and other people, and back and forth between the two species, now THAT IS a “major tangible experience”, lemme tell ya. A possibly lethal, ever increasing one, also.
The worst possible thing that people who think they have “morgellons disease” could do, is to experiment with more antibiotics giving rise to more super-resistant strains of infections, putting everyone at risk.
I’ve read that super-pathogens are even becoming so far advanced as to avoid the effects of bleach disinfection as an environmental surfactant. MRSA can survive, on whatever people who have it touch, for nearly three weeks.
Can one have an experience without a cause? That’s a rather philosophical question. It’s also a little language trap, since it does not consider that:
You can have an experience with multiple causes.
You can have an experience with unknown causes.
You can have the same experience with different causes.
Your perception of an experience may differ from someone else’s perception of the same experience.
Your perception of an experience may be the same as some else’s perception of a different experience.
You may make mistakes in correlating perceptions, experience and causes. Other may also make mistakes.
Written language can be very imprecise when used sparingly, so is an ideal breeding ground for mistakes, especially regarding perceptions of experiences.
That’s enough philosophy.
Thanks Michael for editing my old post, I should learn how to refer to postings.
As far as antibiotic resistance goes, the use of them in animal feeds is unforgivable.
However when antibiotic therapy is required for leprosy or TB, we are talking about more than a year since these organisms (like actinomycoses) are so
slow growing.
Thanks for telling me about Lymebusters as they haven’t sent me a validation code yet.
So pappasmurf, you going sufing with the busters, eh? When you do, give everybody a big shout out for me…..Hey, there was this girl that used to post there whose username was similar to yours…..her name was stupidsmurf…..
I’m out of the loop on who is who…..but was wondering where she went? Stupidsmurf just kind of vanished and so did her friend Jjll…..I’ve always wondered why they departed…..
XXXXXXXXXXX
a word of wisdom from Michael……..and I quote:
You can have an experience with multiple causes.
I liked that one….
okay, I’m not feeling so happy nor healthy…..I wish I’d have some more of those delusions……
And what is perception? (Okay, I’ll quit.) “Adapted and her boyfriend”, were accused of speaking in riddles at lymebusters, but we didn’t mean to.
Ain’t that what makes a person’s underarms wet?
Speaking of ulcers, back before they discovered this, I took Carafate, and it worked excellently. No TC, I don’t think you’re thinking of the right thing. HONK-HONK!!
Yup, we’re all bozos on this bus!
If we can’t laff, what can we dooze? Hehehe. Cry?
London
Did you know there is a thread about you?
They know that you are here now!
All aboard!! Step right up. Oh me, oh my.
I’m looking for the Orient Express.
Forget about TC. We are’t even allowed to buy a ticket on the Orient Express. HONK-HONK!! Don’t you recall all the times we’ve been kicked off of that train? We’re still taking that slow boat to China, remember?
“It”…forget about “it” TC. (Where’s that foghorn? HONK-HONK)
Oh, yeah. I forgot. When do we get there? I need to go to Walmart.
Please, no Perrier or Chinese cotton briefs on the trip.
Well, the Morgs ate all my other Chinese cotton briefs, except for the waistbands. And I havn’t had any Perrier since we left Paris.
http://www.silentsuperbug.com//index.php
Has anyone looked at this site?
http://www.silentsuperbug.com//index.php
I posted on the other page with the fueding children, but you all seem a little more together and MIGHT appreciate the following information:
http://morgellonswatch.wordpress.com/2006/06/30/how-many-people-have-morgellons/#comment-5694
Hehehe. You dogmatic skeptics are funny. If they had computers and an internet in 1790 you would all be mocking people who say they found rocks that fell from the sky.
Remember that classic episode from dogmatic skeptic history?
Dear David,
I think you’re trying to make a personal attack by calling some people “dogmatic skeptics.”
Then I think you’re trying to make an argument that our skepticism is unwarranted.
If our skepticism is unwarranted, please provide links or quotes from peer-reviewed published literature on Morgellons and its legitimacy.
Sarah, no, it really isn’t a personal atack but an accurate description of some people who use skepticism to prematurely close off discussion about controversial matters before those matters have been settled by a close and studious examination of the facts such as the kind Kaiser Permanente, hopefully, will do when they examine Morgellons.
There is a healthy kind of skepticism and there is an unhealthy kind. The unhealthy kind is dogmatic, because it unfits a person for accepting new facts, and therefore it disenables them from admitting when NEW “entities” must be introduced to explain something.
Please remember the difference between appearance and reality, between what seems to be the case and what actually is the case. Just because you can explain something given only what is already known does not mean that you actually have explained it given what is already known. Such mistakes are commonly made by people who don’t actually study unusual phenomenon but who do armchair science explanations from their computer desks.
As far as your call for peer reviewed literature on the legitimacy of Morgellons, I suppose that’s the sort of thing that comes out AFTER a serious investigation has been concluded, not BEFORE. Refer again to the CDC Kaiser planned study.
Morgellons IS something. Whether it is psychological or a combination of many factors and not a disease remains to be seen; whatever it is, it IS something.
And each and every one of your confabulated “Occam’s Hottub” type examples requires as much evidence to support it as does any other statement. Otherwise, your theories about what it is without any serious study of it are as much pseudoscience as anything else which deserves that title.
You are aware, are you not, that meteorites were also once explained away as superstition and nonsense?
Study, study, study, not mockery, mockery, mockery, is what will answer the question.
So, in answer to your request, we shall know if your skepticism WAS unwarranted when we have the results of the planned CDC study. At that time, I shall refer you to the literature, and THEN and ONLY then, will we BOTH know exactly what it is all about, assuming of course that KP does do a serious study, something I shall be watching closely.
That is, unless you yourself have already thoroughly examined Morgellons and have published peer reviewed research of your own that supports YOUR claims of what it is. Do you have such peer reviewed published literature that you can direct me to?
Now, is your skepticism unwarranted? I don’t have a dog in this fight, lady. I don’t have Morgellons and I don’t know anybody who does. But I can smell dog poo from a distance, even if I can’t always see it, and your request for me to “prove” your skepticism is unwarranted with facts from peer reviewed journals sounds like it’s coming from someone stuck in a little ad ignorantium hole. Is your skepticism warranted if I cannot give you facts that it is not? Do meteorites not exist if I cannot give you evidence that they do?
Whether or not one’s skepticism is warranted seems to me to be a question each of us must ponder on our own.
David.
Scientific skepticism is always warranted. Of course “dogmatic skepticism” is not. The question here is why you would think I (the writer of the articles here) am being dogmatic. What exactly is the dogma I am espousing? All I do it say what the current “evidence” indicates, and back it up with the opinions of just about every scientist or medical professional who has looked at Morgellons.
Saying we should “wait for the evidence” is exactly what I am saying that the MRF should do. They are making a lot of statements (a blanket “you are not delusional” being one), that are NOT BASED ON EVIDENCE, and if they are wrong (which everyone seems to think they are), then they are doing harm by steering these patients away from the treatment they need.
Since there is no evidence, the MRF should wait and see. I’d be very happy to wait and see with them. But since they don’t, I’ll continue to point out the problems with their arguments and their actions.
David,
Thank you for responding to my comments.
You say you are describing accurately premature skepticism, but I disagree. I don’t see evidence of premature skepticism from the author of the blog, nor from most of the commentators. I do see dogmatic statements from the MRF and Morgellons supporters, who assert prematurely (i.e., before the Kaiser study, CDC results, etc.) that Morgellons is a distinct medical condition, that it can be treated with antibiotics, that it is contagious, etc.
I agree that things which we now understand to be meteorites were explained by superstition, similar to lightening being caused by Zeus. In that vein, I support that Morgellons is best explained not by superstition or other thought processes such as “the government is trying to get me,” or “the scientists is trying to hush us up.”
“Study, study, study, not mockery, mockery, mockery, is what will answer the question.” I found this to be the most compelling of your comments. Time spent discussing these issues, rather than, say, taking pictures of young researchers and animating pins going through their heads will surely better support ones cause, rather than mockery.
I see you saying here at the end that we shall know if the skepticism was unwarranted in the future, but I would like to point out that in you also say that the skepticism was dogmatic and in appropriate. I see these things as contradictory. Which is it, that they are dogmatic, or that the skepticism may or may not be warranted?
I do not have peer-reviewed published literature on the topic of Morgellons. However, I have authored literature on DP, and the symptoms for the vast majority of sufferers is the same.
I was not requesting you to prove my skepticism. I say that large claims require large evidence, and the large claim that Morgellons is a distinct medical condition requires evidence. If someone is going to make that claim, I would like to see evidence from knowledgeable people who have been critically evaluated in their opinions.
Having a dog in this fight (I wonder if Michael Vick has an opinion?) is neither here nor there. One may be involved in commenting on this blog if one supports skeptical critique of science-related claims, regardless of experiencing or knowing someone with Morgellons.
Hi Sarah, and thanks for your answer.
You also need to ask a good question to get a good answer. “What is Morgellons” is not a good question, since it presupposes that Morgellons is something. “What causes Morgellons” is worse, since it assumes the first question is answered. The question that should be asked is:
“What is wrong with all those people who say they have Morgellons?”.
Okay, the above is from the Occam’s Hottub” piece. Actually, “What is Morgellons?” is an excellent question. The fact is that Morgellons IS something. The fact that we have a name for it, that the CDC has awarded a contract to KP for it’s study proves it is something. Now the word Morgellons here is an empty vessel. It may be what you all seem to think it is, and it may not be, but it IS something. The same can be said about the author’s second question. However, when the author says:
“What is wrong with all those people who say they have Morgellons,” that is a whopper! First of all, it’s emotionally charged. If I thought I had Morgellons, I would also think that who wrote that either thinks I’m nuts or that I have a variety of other problems which I mistakenly think is this Morgellons thing. The word “wrong” is very loaded, and to refer to Morgellons sufferers as “people who say they have Morgellons” seems to assume with authority that Morgellons is a delusion or a confluence of errors.
I think it is much better simply to ask “What is Morgellons?” and then to answer that question with facts from a scientific study. There is no potential for insult with such a simple question, and it doesn’t presume an end result the way that the latter question seems to do. Occam’s Razor is also good for composing questions.
So those kinds of statements do seem dogmatic, because they make assumptions without the supporting authority that only facts can give.
As for the contradiction you say you see, there is none.
You are conflating tenses of my statements, Sarah. You are, in fact, either right or wrong in your opinion of Morgellons right at this moment. But because you do not have the facts and studies to back up your opinion, you do not KNOW if you are right or wrong. Therefore, I can legitimately say you are being dogmatic if you aggressively forward your opinions without having facts to support the authority with which you forward them.
When the CDC backed study’s results become known, then we shall know whether you were at this moment right or wrong. But whichever you turn out to be, right or wrong, it has no effect on the charge of being dogmatic.
Therefore, you can actually be both dogmatic and correct at the same time.
Thanks. Have a good night, all.
David.
You are playing with semantics here David. You have to define your terms. What do YOU mean by the word “Morgellons”? You use the word, so you must be able to define it.
We know what Morgellons is. It’s a very loosely defined syndrome with a long list of optional symptoms including formication, skin lesions, and finding fibers in or on the skin, along with a lot of other symptoms similar to CFS.
That’s what Morgellons is.
What we don’t know is what causes people to have some of these symptoms. We don’t know if they all have the same disease. We don’t know if the fibers are connected to anything.
Evidence suggests that they do not have the same disease and that the fibers are environmental, and they actually have a variety of physical and/or psychological problems. That’s what most doctors believe. They see patients like this all the time, they see the lesions are self-generated, they see the other skin problems, they see the fibers are lint. That’s the evidence.
Why is the CDC investigating? Because of lobbying by the MRF. NOT because of any evidence.
On the surface, it is obvious what is wrong with the people who believe they have Morgellons. An in depth study brings the same conclusion. We “know” what the results of Kaiser’s study will be. The CDC also knows.
Tall Cotton
Sarah, I’m not playing a semantics game. I don’t have any problem with your definition of what Morgellons is, but the cause or causes cannot be absolutely excluded from the definition of what it is. If it is delusional or a compound of errors, for example, then THAT is part of the definition of what Morgellons is too.
But if you want to disagree, that’s fine. Pluto has been redefined so that it is no longer a planet, and that has lots of astronomers who voted against the change hopping mad too. I’m not going to quibble about it.
As for your claim that there is no evidence that contradicts your view, I have to remain skeptical. Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong. But if Tall Cotton is right, then nothing is likely to be settled by an investigation which proceeds from a predetermined conclusion.
I certainly don’t accept things like the confabulated “hot tub” hypothesis. If you make an assertion that purports to be fact, you have to support it. You can’t just make up a “hot tub” scenario and then pat yourself on the back for having explained something because you didn’t introduce a new and previously unknown fact into the story.
Tall Cotton’s comment reminds me of several encounters with doctors I’ve had in my own life. One was a middle aged man who snapped at the slightest question I asked regarding his diagnosis of my girlfriend having migraines. He was very certain about it and raised his voice to silence me. Another doctor, for the same problem, feared she had spinal meningitis and painfully removed fluid from her spine.
She had sinusitis.
What does that have to do with anything? The first doctor KNEW she had migraines. I am more charitable to the second who was more afraid she had meningitis than certain about it.
David.
Hi David, I don’t have time to reply right now (it’s bedtime) but please note that Michael and I are not the same person, though are both replying to your comments. I think you accidentally replied to me in response to a comment from him 🙂
Good points Dave, thx.
With respect David, I think you miss the point of the Hot Tub example. My general point on this site is that the list of symptoms that some call Morgellons is actually caused by a variety of different things. The Hot Tub is just ONE very small example that explains perhaps only a very few cases.
Occam’s point was that we should not introduce new entities unless necessary. Given one case of Morgellons, where they have bad skin, and some fireproof fibers, then the Hot Tub explanation adds no new entities (fiberglass splinters, neurotic excoriations, and hot-tub folliculitus, are very well known and understood). The “infectious disease that creates fireproof fibers” adds a very big one, something new to science. Obviously not impossible, but unless there is evidence to support this new entity, it’s more reasonably to go with the explanation involving known entities.
Put more simply: there is no evidence of anything new.
The Hot Tub might explain two or three examples, but conside how many cases Menopause might explain. All the symptoms are the same, including formication.
http://morgellonswatch.com/2006/08/25/occams-menopause/
David,
I think you’re confusing the point of the “Occam’s Hot Tub” post. I don’t think Michael intended to argue that his hypothetical is the correct cause of Morgellon’s symptoms in all patients or even in any single patient. He simply intended to point out that it was possible to construct a situation that would explain a Morgellons case without introducing a new entity, thus satisfying the principles of Occam’s Razor. He doesn’t assert that hypothetical to be fact, and so he certainly doesn’t need to produce evidence proving that it has actually happened. The simple point is that it is illogical to assume that there is a new infectious entity as the MRF and many sufferers have done. It is also illogical to assume that there isn’t, but just saying “you shouldn’t assume there’s a new infectious process” is pretty uninteresting and also ineffective in balancing the spectacular arguments of those who are certain that Morgellons is something new and fearful.
I, like you, am going to sit back and wait to see what happens when a real study is performed on people reporting these symptoms. I have an opinion now, but I’m certainly in no position to hold forth that opinion as fact. However, I think what Michael does here is important in light of the seemingly growing number of people who are unwilling to wait and see, but are rather certain that this is some sort of new entity or disease.
I see that Michael responded on his own behalf while I was writing this. Ah, well, I’ll leave this here for posterity.
Wisco
Is it true that some of the fibers have been found to be partly made of HDPE? If so, what possible sources would HDPE in a fibrous form come from? I believe carpets are mostly made of nylon.
David.
It’s true that some rather dubious “scientists” have claimed this. HDPE is used for ropes and tarpaulins, as well as garden furniture and, curious enough, hot tubs.
Well first, who are they and why do you call them “dubious”?
Second, regardless of your estimation of them, have you actually looked at the evidence they presented? If you have, did you cover that somewhere on this website that I’m not seeing?
Third, HDPE doesn’t appear to be fibrous from my own limited experience with the material unless it is manufactured to be fibrous. What FIBROUS sources would such material come from? An HDPE rope would not be like a hemp rope, which from my own experience I know can easily give you “splinters.”
David.
Dr. Hildegard Staninger, a purveyor of “far-infrared” saunas.
http://www.dldewey.com/misc/stan.htm
Read the whole article if you want even give this HDPE aspect any credence. I’ve seen no evidence that HDPE fibers are emerging from anyone, other than Staninger’s claim, so it’s hardly necessary to posit mechanisms. Occam would think it’s more likely Staninger is a quack.
How many people have actually pulled fibers from Morgellons claimants and studied their composition?
A wide variety.
Dermatologists see these people all the time. They can see that some of the fibers are clearly hair or clothing (they often look exactly like the fibers on the cloths the person is actually wearing). Obviously you will occasionally find a fiber that is unidentified, but that’s hardly odd.
The fibers all seem to be different, and they are very small, which makes studying their composition rather hard. The first step would be to gather some statistics.
I’ve studied the photos, most of them are identifiable.
http://picasaweb.google.com/morgellonswatch/NotMorgellons
David, if you just tuned in late, the best way to understand what’s happened, is to go back to the beginning. This will help start you off:
KJRH, in Tulsa, Oklahoma – Fall, 1994:
http://members4.boardhost.com/Kritters/msg/2057.html
Tulsa World, Tahlequah – January, 1995
http://members4.boardhost.com/Kritters/msg/2058.html
National Examiner – late 1994
http://members4.boardhost.com/Kritters/msg/2059.html
Go and look at all the media reports of DOP here:
http://members4.boardhost.com/Kritters/index.html?1189477014
Now, go to the internet archive…
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php
Enter morgellons.org into the search and take your time (looking at it thoroughly), exploring their site from the start. Note the diabolical progression designed to lure these patients further into oblivion.
Has anyone looked into some type of keratin disorder?. I’ve had the rashes, the creeping and now these spider weblike strands of material popping out of my skin. The reason why I ask about keratin is because I’ve also found these “threads”growing out of the outer sheath (the clear glob of tissue found on the end of a plucked hair shaft) and the dermal papae on my hair. Also, the sheath of tissue surrounding the hair appears to change. First it becomes opaque then it turns clumpy then sheds in the form of thin fiber strands. The creeping sensation seems to come from these strands as they travel down the hair shaft and out to the scalp. Does anyone know if this is an altogether different condition? I’ve tried the standard dandruff and psoriasis treatments to no effect.
Have you explained your symptoms to a dermatologist? The people who “think” they have Morgellons, are actually suffering from a wide variety of both physical and mental disorders. We’ve studied just about every disease there is, and some that there aren’t. It’s best to communicate closely with your doctor and follow his recommendations.
This board is quite obviously loused up with disinfornation agents trying their level best to smear the Morgellon’s disease. How do you people live like that? Why else would you be here trying to ‘debunk’ this terrible disease? It is you who are the truly sick people here. You are perverted. You are lying for money. You’re disgusting.
I am just blown away by this site… it is pathetic… if you all are “WELL”… why the hell aren’t you out LIVING your life VS trying to convince a bunch of sick individuals that you could care less about… that. “your right & they’re wrong”.
The only LAUGHABLE ounce of semi credibility you receive is when, Sarah B., who really doesn’t have the impressive credentials that she pretends to… adds in her simple 2-4 sentence responses in which she repeatedly brings up the “lack of peer reviewed evidence/info/WHATEVER!
SOON-Ms. Sarah wanna B. will have all the literature she could possibly dream for her & her ‘peers’ (so she says/wishes) to review…
The rest of the regulars on this site… well, even IF ‘Morgellons’ was something of a delusional nature… at least, those who say they are suffering with it have a reason/excuse to spend hours on line searching for answers and fueling their “so called” mentally ill minds with back & forth BS with people named “smileywhatever” & “tallcotton”… BUT-YOU ALL? What the hell is wrong with you that you waste your SELF proclaimed sound mind/life to live every spare second on line arguing with a group of people that YOU SAY are crazy.
If you really believe that… back off… get a life. YOU are obviously a bit infatuated with these individuals & clearly NOT mentally stable yourself to live your life doing “this”… how about you go out and really make a difference… maybe you could buy some Girl Scout cookies or something & call it a night, month, year, life…
Foolish people… so foolish…