Jul 04 2006
“This” Disease
What we have here, is a failure to communicate.
“I have this disease!”, “this disease is real!”, “I have this”, “the symptoms of this…”, “this terrible disease”.
The problem here is one of language. Saying “this” makes “it” sound like a real disease that has been discovered and that people have been diagnosed with. “This” indicates something concrete, but is being used for something intangible.
When someone says “I have this disease”, they really mean “I have some of the symptoms listed on the Morgellons Research Foundation web site, I found some fibers on my skin, so I’m assuming both that Morgellons is a real disease, and that I have Morgellons”.
Being a language problem, we can’t do much about the problem, we can’t change the language, we can’t even explain the problem very well. But we can be aware of the problem.
“This Disease” is a linguistic shortcut that allows you to travel from symptoms to diagnosis without the usual logical and scientific steps that are required inbetween.
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What is it?
tallcotton, I’d written about that report before:
http://morgellonswatch.wordpress.com/2006/05/03/duval-county-report/
(sidenote: with the new comment system, you can just past in a web address, and it will convert it to a link automatically, so you don’t always need to do the < a tag)
Yes, we know. I never saw the details, before.
Oh, let me add, that it is just because I am not very computer savvy, Michael, and that the link TC provided, is the html version of the file, which I couldn’t open to read from your link on the topic.
I quote from your article, “It’s a bacterium that lives in the stomach. About 40% of Americans are infected with it. In most people it does nothing harmful, but for some people it is involved in the production of stomach ulcers. Treatment with antibiotics that target H. Pylori will cure and then prevent the recurrence of stomach ulcers.”
The doctor who discovered this connections was ridiculed by the AMA for 20 years because he found there was a connection between ulcers and this bacteria. He had to, finally, INGEST THE BACTERIA HIMSELF — GET THE ULCERS HIMSELF — SO THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY WOULD STOP RIDICULING HIM. They did not believe this man of science for 20 years. A sad state of affairs indeed.
Perhaps — perhaps — the medical community will learn from their own history of knee-jerk negation.
The truth is the truth — even if people choose not to believe it. The church excommunicated a great man of science for insisting the world was round, perhaps from fear?
Now, Morgellons Is something to fear getting yourself, but in trying to disprove it, perhaps you will find the truth of it — it is real, and admonishing those who have it will not change that truth.
The world is Still round.
I think you meant to post this in the Ulcer thread, but still…
Your timeline, and your facts, are a bit off:
1981 - J. Robin Warren tells Barry Marshall that some unusual bacteria is found in biopsies of patients with ulcers
1982 - Warren and Marshall work together to identify the bacteria, this study is rejected by the Australian Gastroenterological Society
1983 - Marshall presents his findings in an overly exhuberent manner, but his lack of evidence to support his revolutionary theory makes people skeptical.
1984 - Marshall drinks his cocktail, he did NOT get ulcers, his study is published in the Lancet as “groundbreaking work”
http://www.jyi.org/features/ft.php?id=101
But you still miss my point. Gastric Ulcers had been accepted as a known medical condition since 1857. Millions of people had ulcers. Doctors knew a lot about them.
Morgellons needs to be defined as a disese, and cases documented in a clinical setting before you can start comparing the situation.
After careful scrutiny of that detailed report, hypothetically, how will morgie people fare in any future studies, provided they are ever conducted by their own local health departments?
The CDC has repeatedly instructed them to seek assistance from their local health care providers. As I have understood most of them to say, they have already gone that route.
So, if all that can be done is MRF/OKU studies on fiber analysis, and the final determination of the CDC’s task force of combined experts on how to address the “morgellons disease situation”, other than wasting taxpayers’ dollars to take an extremely long route into helping each person, individually, WTF is it that we are seeing occur here, exactly?
I’m sorry, I was referring to the aforementioned report in the links, here, and hinting at the language barrier that is so prevalent in morgie victims.
There is also a big communication problem when the Morgellons believers refer to any of the seemingly infinite number of morphological states of the ‘morgellons pathogen’. They use “it” or “them” and quite often the reader doesn’t have a clue as to whether they are referring to some of their own connective tissue, teeming with macrophages, or hair that is made motile by electrostatics. They may even be referring to the rocks that are expelled through the skin due to failing kidneys and toxic overload. Who knows? It’s “it”, and it causes “this”. Whew!! What a joke!!
I’m astonished upon reading the statements from people who recite the precise physical health diagnoses they’ve been given, and say such various things as:
1. The doctors still can’t determine what is causing this
and/or
2. My doctor is wrong, this is all due to morgellons
Yes, “they” can be any number of things.
I noticed that’s basically an implied understanding among people who think they have “morgellons disease”. Shortly before I exited lymebusters, I’d posed the question as to what “they” were, and, that since so many people claimed to be “killing them”, repeatedly, why were “they” not being eradicated as the word “killing” implies. I “killed mine”, but I didn’t do anything like any of the practices I saw on that message board. I was lucky, extrememly lucky, that getting healthy was all I needed to do. That is not an option for so many, as they told me it wasn’t. I believe them.
As Michael’ tea tree oil experimentation proved, and as I had tried, in the past, to tactfully explain on the morgie board, people are perpetuating their situations
Whoaaa!!!!! No, they are not. I don’t mean “everybody is”.
New rule, every third person plural pronoun here should be parsed as if it has an abiguous quantative modifier implicitly prepended.
Some people.
Can we say they are all “Nut’s”, if we believe it?
I meant, “Nuts”.
Michael, you seem to be every bit as obsessed with this issue, if not more, than Mary. What is motivating you in your desire to discredit her?
Oh, I wish I could address that question.
I’m happy though, to see somebody who has realized, and acknowledged, that she is obsess-driven in the creation of “her disease”.
Cutmeabreak,
Hello, Pinocchio. Your disguise isn’t very good.
Tall Cotton
I’m motivated out of simple interest, and a desire to correct what I think is disinformation that is hurting the health of people.
I’m retired, so have lots of spare time. This passes the time, and hopefully I help some people.
However, my motivation should not be important, since I’m focusing on the factual evidence. If you want to question something, question the facts.
I don’t see how anyone could accuse you, Michael, of being every bit as obsessed, if not more even more, than Mary. That is absurd!! (If you plan on hitting the airwaves, lemme know. Hehe.)
I’m astonished upon reading the statements from people who recite the precise physical health diagnoses they’ve been given, and say such various things as:
1. The doctors still can’t determine what is causing this…
* 42% of people believed they had personally experienced a medical mistake (NPSF survey)
* 44,000 to 98,000 deaths annually from medical errors (Institute of Medicine)
* 225,000 deaths annually from medical errors including 106,000 deaths due to “nonerror adverse events of medications” (Starfield)
* 180,000 deaths annually from medication errors and adverse reactions (Holland)
* 20,000 annually to 88,000 deaths annually from nosocomial infections
* 2.9 to 3.7 percent of hospitalizations leading to adverse medication reactions
* 7,391 deaths resulted from medication errors (Institute of Medicine)
* 2.4 to 3.6 percent of hospital admissions were due to (prescription) medication events (Australian study)
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/mistakes/common.htm
“A new research study shows how common a medical misdiagnosis can be and how severely it can exacerbate a disease.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051107075616.htm
“MONDAY, Oct. 10 (HealthDay News) — Upwards of 12 percent of U.S. cancer patients are initially misdiagnosed, a new study suggests, leading to repeat testing, treatment delays, increased health-care costs and patient anxiety.
Improper tissue and blood sampling, sometimes coupled with inaccurate reading of hospital lab results, are the twin culprits for cancer diagnosis error, according to a team of Canadian, Chinese and American researchers.”
http://www.personal-injury.com/practice_areas/Delay_in_Diagnosis_Cancer.asp
I’m astonished that personal injury attorneys continue to grow rich.
I’m astonished that those dumb Morgies don’t just go along with everything their wise doctors tell them. Could it be that they aren’t willing to risk their lives on a series of educated guesses that repeatedly lead them nowhere? Naw, that would make too much sense. Anyways, doctors know EVERYTHING, kinda like God. They’re incapable of making a mistake.
[Edited 7/5/2006 7:42AM by Michael: corrected poster name to aherah, validated I.P.]
“I’m retired, so have lots of spare time. This passes the time, and hopefully I help some people.”
Whom have you helped Michael? How have you helped them “see the light”? I’m saddend that you, Tall Fuzz, and Smiles don’t have a funner way to pass your time on a holiday.
Michael next Fouth, if you still find yourself in front of your computer with no one to talk to, let me know. You can come to our picnic–it’s a blast.
“If you want to question something, question the facts.”
The facts hadn’t had the opportunity to present themselves, yet…but they will.
Cutmeabreak wasn’t me because Michael and I already had this discussion before. For a person with all this “common sense,” you seem to be a bit off TC. BTY Michael, motivations always play a part. You should have learned that by now.
Aherah
Of course doctors make mistakes. But consider: if a doctor, with their years of education and training, has a probability of making a mistake, then imagine how much that probability would increase if the diagnosis and treatment was left to someone who was educated by Google.
Airline pilots often make mistakes, sometimes causing hundreds of deaths, does this mean you should fly the plane yourself?
I don’t believe I said that it was wise to self-diagnose and/or self-medicate (and yet millions of Americans do each day), but do you just sit in your uncomfortable scary misery because your doctor either doesn’t know what to do or says it’s all in your head, or do you attempt to fix it yourself? Michael, you mitigate the pain and suffering. The medications from standard diagnosis haven’t worked or had made things worse. If they can’t or won’t try to figure out and fix things, who does? In the meantime, how do we cope with our discomfort, inability to sleep, inability to perform due to discomfort and lack of sleep (which eventually leads to joblessness)? I’m sorry, but I’m not going to let my life disintegrate while my doctor sits back and says “duh, I dunno…it must be psychosomatic.”
“Airline pilots often make mistakes, sometimes causing hundreds of deaths, does this mean you should fly the plane yourself?”
I no one else is around to fly the plane, I WILL GRAB THE CONTROLS AND FIGURE IT OUT TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY! I WILL MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO LIVE!
Sure, but you can do that, and still work with your doctor (or doctors). Those medical mistake statistics seem designed to scare people off doctors entirely.
There is no harm in a degree of self-medication, I took an Advil last night. The problem is when people who are seriously ill develop an adversarial relationship with the medical establishment and attempt self treatment of complex conditions, in a manner that is often injurious to their health.
Doctors are wonderful resources, they know a lot, they can refer you to specialists, and they can prescribe helpful medications. Sure, you can do your own thing, but it might work out better if you can collaborate with your doctor.
Fortunately there are lots of other pilots on the plane. 500,000 doctors in the US.
Doctors (can be) wonderful resources. I don’t disagree with this statement at all. Where our opinions diverge is more along the lines of the personal motivation type of stuff. They have been trained to jump to the diagnosis of dop when approached by people who, like me, claim to have fibers emerging from their skin. They are preconditioned to think this. This type of medical hardheadedness makes it difficult for many to work with their doctors. When presented with a case like mine, they seem to have a bias from the word “go.” I also experienced this medical hardheadedness when my pre- and post-military bloodwork kept coming back positive for syphilis. I was a virgin. In basic training, three doctors held me captive in a room while they interrogated me, trying to get me to admit to having had sex. As a scared, naive, eighteen-year-old recruit, they made me cry, but I was still sure that I was a virgin. Ironically, Lyme can turn a syphilis test positive. Coincidence? Perhaps. Motivations and personal biases always play a part. People aren’t machines.
Unfortunately, doctors deal with delusional people all the time. The typical doctor will never have seen a patient who claims to have things emerging from their skin and who is not delusional.
So, if someone comes along who exhibits all the symptoms of delusion, but who is NOT delusional, then its inevitable that there will be some difficulty.
What you need is some evidence. Have you ever asked a doctor, hypothetically, what it would take for them to look into it? What is the level of evidence that a doctor would need?
Statistic du jour:
“conservative estimates suggest that a fourth to a third of physical symptoms in the general population and in primary care settings are medically unexplained”
About that statistic du jour, I have two other friends who do not have Morgellons but have unexplained recurrent issues. I have my weird illness, they have theirs.
My son has what looks like ringworm on his cheek. When I put some antifungal ointment on it (been down this road before), black fibers rubbed out. I have company today, so perhaps my PhD brother will hold a camera while I rub some more black fibers from my son’s fungal (?) infection. We’ll see.
“What you need is some evidence. Have you ever asked a doctor, hypothetically, what it would take for them to look into it? What is the level of evidence that a doctor would need”
Part of the roadblock is that they are trained “not to validate the delusion” by looking into/listening further to the patient. So, we’re screwed. On the other hand, I think my present doctor, who has not called me delusional, doesn’t want to get that close to my skin. In her words, “even if I see something, I don’t know what I’m looking at.” Actually, I think she’s worried about catching something. Smart woman.
Black fibers eh? And there is nothing around the house, or that you or he is wearing that has the same fibers? (just checking, sorry).
I don’t mind your skepticism Michael. His face was just washed prior to putting on the medication. He was getting ready for bed. I’ve seen the same thing happen on the hardend-skin spots on my daughter. Believe me, I rack my brain trying to find excuses for what I see. Nothing gets fixed if you live in denial about it–just ask alcoholics. I want things to get fixed. I won’t deny or write off as “dust” what I see anymore.
You’re an intelligent person Michael. I just feel it’s a shame that your intelligence in this matter couldn’t be used in a truly more helpful manner. What we really need are some good troubleshooters.
Lots of people have received misdiagnoses. Second opinions often help, so long as the second doctor isn’t informed that’s what you’re hoping to accomplish. (Depending upon what you’re hoping to gain from the experience, they have tendencies to not want to disagree with their colleagues.) Some of us have had our lives placed in extreme jeopardy, without it tarnishing our faith in doctors. Patient responsibility is crucial in our health care. I’m not singling out and directing any of my opinions to anyone, but based upon the impression I’ve received, morgie people sort of paint a picture to the general public of not being responsible patients.
Doctors have rather more complex traing that you give them credit for:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3351.htm#section~clinical_features
“The first step in the clinical evaluation is establishing whether pathology is present. This represents a clinical judgment that sometimes is difficult to make. Some comments that appear delusional may, in fact, be true. ”
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3351.htm#section~treatment
“Cognitive therapeutic approaches may be useful for some patients. The therapist helps the patient to identify maladaptive thoughts by means of Socratic questioning and behavioral experiments, and then to replace them with alternative, more adaptive beliefs and attributions. Discussion of the unrealistic nature of delusional beliefs should be done gently and only after rapport with the patient has been established (Silva, 2003; Fochtmann, 2005; Turkington, 2006). ”
(Note, the above extract do not imply I think anyone in particular has a delusional disorder, they are just to illustrate the recommended responses of doctors when presented with someone who exhibits signs of delusion).
Arehah, I’m inclined to suspect that some people might have some things emerging from their skin. Did you see my tea-tree oil experiment:
http://morgellonswatch.wordpress.com/2006/04/11/tea-tree-objects-identified/
I can see people finding fibers on their skin (especially if they look for them with a hand held microscope). You’ve seem the “fibers are everywhere” posts.
But what makes people think that fibers are emerging from the skin?
Here’s a thought. If they emerge from the skin, they must at some time be ender the skin.
If they were under the skin, then on top of it, they must at some point be partially under the skin, and partially on top of it.
Either they emerge sideways, which would leave a long fiber-shaped slit in the skin, or they emerge lengthways, through a tiny hole.
I assume you have found no slits in the skin, so let’s assume they emerge lengthways.
The fibers are what 1/2 an inch long? How quickly could a 1/2″ fiber emerge from your skin, and what would push/pull it out?
Now, you are rubbing this cream on. What do you see? Do the fibers spring out of the skin. Do they suddenly appear in a flash? What is the moment where you first see a fiber, where is it?
Have you ever found a fiber that what half in and a half out of the skin? If they were emerging from the skin, don’t you think some would be found in this state? If they are, then would that not be very easy to photograph?
“Doctors have rather more complex traing that you give them credit for.”
So do people in a variety of professions (a president comes to my mind). There are “A” people, and there are “C” people. The majority are “C” people, but even then, we are only talking about how they perform on tests. How they perform in real situations may differ (i.e. a fellow soccer mom almost lost her son as he began to drown during swim lessons, unbenounst to the “best student” lifeguard who was sunning herself. The mother had to jump into the pool to rescue her son.) Training in itself does not necessarily equate talent or ability.
“only after rapport with the patient has been established”
The one time I received the “delusional” diagnosis, it was on my second visit to a new doctor. As I stated before, it was about a three minute appointment from the word “fiber.” I think I left with the words “WTF I can’t believe you just did that.” He was probably an “A” student, but he certainly did a “F” job in my case since he didn’t follow these guidelines. And you wonder why Morgies are disgusted with their medical providers?
“Patient responsibility is crucial in our health care. I’m not singling out and directing any of my opinions to anyone, but based upon the impression I’ve received, morgie people sort of paint a picture to the general public of not being responsible patients.”
Could you explain what exactly you mean here Smiles?
It appears that a fair percentage of such people have received referrals to psychiatrists. If they chose to not go, how could delusions of parasitiosis be ruled out.
I have always just called dermatologists up for appointments, whenever the need arose. They don’t require a referral from our primary care physicians.
“Either they emerge sideways, which would leave a long fiber-shaped slit in the skin, or they emerge lengthways, through a tiny hole.”
People have posted on Lymebusters seeing both of these on their skin.
I did not say that the fibers from my son’s cheek were 1/2 inch long. Everything else you say assumes that I believe they are fibers under the skin. I do not know if this is the case, or if it is another substance that emerges through the skin like playdough pushed through holes. We talked about this on Lymebusters before, remember?
“It appears that a fair percentage of such people have received referrals to psychiatrists. If they chose to not go, how could delusions of parasitiosis be ruled out.”
I can only explain to you from my experience, the less-than-professional doctor told me that I should take his referral, and when I do tell them about the fibers, they will, without a doubt, write “delusional” in my file. Why bother? I’ve already been branded. It’s a wonder I didn’t punch that doctor out.
I’m done for now–I’d rather play with my family.
When you squeeze certain areas of your skin, say the side of your nose, sebum is squeezed out of pores and forms short cylindrical masses, kind of like “playdough pushed through holes”.
If the fibers were formed this way, then you would expect them to be initially soft. You would also expect them to be of variable diameter. You would also expect them not to be black - since skin is translucent, then if the substance were black, you would see it under the skin.
Of course, it could be something the shoots out super fast in clear liquid form, turns black and hardens in an instant. That would be new to science.
Or consider another explanation - dead skin cells and ointment are rubbed together and rolled into cylindrical shapes. That would be something familiar to most people.
It’s kind of pointless me speculating based on your brief description. But my point is there are reasonable explanations for most things that people describe.
There is simply no evidence that anything unusual is going on.
“I’m not singling out and directing any of my opinions to anyone…” It’s misfortunate that it appears as though my last comment was in response to a question that I didn’t even see until afterwards. My intention continues to be as it was originally, which is to use this blog to put down my thoughts.
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy because a person’s interests and circumstances have no bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made. While a person’s interests will provide them with motives to support certain claims, the claims stand or fall on their own. It is also the case that a person’s circumstances (religion, political affiliation, etc.) do not affect the truth or falsity of the claim. This is made quite clear by the following example: “Bill claims that 1+1 =2. But he is a Republican, so his claim is false.”
hehe…..that was good, huh?
I agree with that in general London, however, all claims need to be verified, and the background of the person making the claim can give you useful indications as to how to go about verifying the claim, particularly if they have made similar claims in the past.
Also sometimes people base at least part of their claim on their personal observations, so it is useful to know the skills the person has in both observing, and accurately reporting observations.
Raw facts should also be able to stand along, but are often presented in a misleading context. Since the situation is complex, you need to make sure you are considering all the angles. Open discussion helps. Science is very helpful
My skin burned before any fibers “floated” to the surface in an irritating fluid, singularly, or in bundles. The “shooting hairs”, shot out like the words imply. I’m just answering this because I see no takers. Lately, I have noticed references (although I couldn’t say just where, exactly), to “microscopic fibers” in association with “morgellons disease”, and that is confusing, to me, as being something “new” added on.
Ginger Savely constantly talks about examining lesions with a hand held microscope, and finding fibers (presumably too small to see with the naked eye).
This seems very different to other reports of visible fibers extruded in large quantities when rubbing lotion on the skin.
So who has “Morgellons”?
When I was ill in 2002, heard about this three years later and posted at Lymebusters’ message board, for close to half a year, I didn’t notice anyone there having any difficulty seeing fibers, if they had them. (I didn’t have a microscope, either, when I was ill, and I don’t have OCD.)
I recently have seen some people on the morgie board, almost sounding as though they felt “left out” (so help me God), saying that they didn’t see either one thing or another, and that maybe they just weren’t looking hard enough.
This didn’t start out with the fibers being microscopic. There seems to be no end to what they’re doing.
Excuse me, in a hurry and wrote confusingly. I meant recent past at LB.
I don’t know WTF I have dammit. But it looks like HIV on my arm.
I’m sorry, If I frighten people-that’s just too damn bad. For I, myself am
frightened. I have no idea if indeed this part is true or not. When I said I knew what this was, I was referring to the bacteria and the insects and
worms. I’m not here to get into that part of what I know…..I’m just wanting to scream out that I think it…….
‘LET ME REPEAT THIS SHOUTING…….I……GOT IT…..”i” THINK i HAVE BEEN GIVEN HIV…….
DON’T PATRONIZE MY INTELLIGENCE BY SAYING GO GET A TEST. I’M WELL AWARE OF THE STUPID ARSE FALLACIES OF THAT TEST THAT THAT MAN GALLIO(sp?) CREATED IN THE 80′S……..
IN OTHER WORDS, i KNOW THAT THIS WON’T SHOW UP ON THE TEST I JUST GOT……OKAY, I’M thru screaming…..and no I’m not saying others have it…..I said myself, I, me………
why do I say this? simple……by looking at my forearm.
Jeezelouise is one person who has come forward in saying that Michael provides a good service. She’d heard of “morgellons disease” in the news, and although she could make her own decisions, she mentioned how easily others could fall under the wrong beliefs. That’s all too true, and I very much think that Michael is helping people.
London, HIV is the virus that causes AIDS, you probably mean you think you have what looks like symptoms of AIDS on your arm.
AIDS has a lot of symptoms (mostly opportunistic infections), most typically you would have persistent flu-like symptoms and weight loss. The most common visible skin symptom is Kaposi sarcoma, which is dark brown lesions:
http://images.google.com/images?q=Kaposi%20sarcoma
It is very likely you don’t have AIDS if you test negative for it. There are lots of conditions that can explain sores on your arm. See:
http://www.dermnet.com/
A doctor is really your best bet. Try keeping your paranoia in check for a day, and see what happens, as an experiment.
I know this is no consolation, but back in the early 80s, when we all first began hearing about AIDs, some people I worked with enjoyed harrassing me over a big patch of eczema I had on the inside of my arm, and the sides of my neck. “Hey, look everyone!! She’s got AIDs!! Eeww!!”
I chased them down to try rubbing it on them.
okay, i will do that. I raqlly have no other choice….unless I find a molecular testing facility……
here is something else I learned today- maybe you all knew it; not me.
LYME DISEASE
Lyme disease has become a serious public health threat in the U.S. The disease has now spread to 46 states. A few years ago, it was practically unknown outside a few locations in the Northeast. The disease has received considerable attention as a potential threat to human health. However, little notice has been taken of the disease in animals. Its prevention, detection, clinical signs and treatment in dogs, horses, cats, and farm animals are similar in many respect to those in humans. Yet there are some important differences to be aware of to keep your animals healthy.
On several occasions, when my face was highly infected and swollen, I watched as clear, hair-like, fibers shot out through my pores. These were up to 5 inches in length. I believe that they were extruded as a liquid, but if this is the case, they hardened instantly. They remained attached to the skin, but they were not rooted. The seemed to be about the same strength as hairs, and they appeard to be fairly uniform in diameter. This happened, but I don’t have any problem whatsoever if it isn’t believed. I could really care less.
I was introduced to the subject of Morgellon’s disease by my husband and have read this blog, the lymebusters board, and various news reports with much interest and compassion. Those who are suffering are clearly at a point of frustration which is understandable given the circumstances. Thanks for sharing your experiences here and in other forums.
Ahereh writes: “You’re an intelligent person Michael. I just feel it’s a shame that your intelligence in this matter couldn’t be used in a truly more helpful manner. What we really need are some good troubleshooters.”
It occurs to me that Michael is indeed a good troubleshooter, for despite being a skeptic (which is an important part of troubleshooting), he is neither pro or against Morgellon’s disease. Rather, he is pro-facts, pro-research, and pro-science. It also occurs to me that if a specific disease which is now referred to as Morgellon’s actually exists, it will be able to stand up to the kind of scrutiny (i.e. facts, evidence, and research) that any other documented disease is subjected to before being recognized.
His posts are well-researched and well-written, as are his comments. Someone who is truly interested in finding answers shouldn’t be threatened by thoughtful commentary on a difficult and complex subject–it seems to me they should welcome it! If Morgellon’s disease can’t stand up to the scrutiny of a blogger like Michael, then how will it stand up to the scrutiny of professional researchers at the CDC? You claim you want to be taken seriously, but when someone actually takes the time to look at the situation in a thoughtful manner, you treat him like the enemy.
I do commend you, Aherah, for being someone who mostly engages in thoughtful debate about your illness and is very willing to share your symptoms and experiences. That takes courage. I hope you continue to do so because it is an important part of getting to the bottom of the problem. And questions by Michael and others like him are also an important part of getting to the bottom of the problem. It might not seem like it, but you guys are on the same side. But if what you want is a “yes man” who will validate everything you say, you probably won’t find that person in Michael.
“you treat him like the enemy.”
I don’t want to, or I wouldn’t have shared so much very personal information. I am always apprehensive that he will misuse my information, as I have seen him do with others. I know I take a chance each time I explain the other perspective from my experience. If you hadn’t noticed, this blog doesn’t represent people who, like me, believe they have a disease/syndrome/illness called Morgellons in a very positive light. I tread on unfriendly ground here; I do so suspiciously/cautiously.
“But if what you want is a “yes man” who will validate everything you say, you probably won’t find that person in Michael.”
Nor will he find that in me, ever, even if we were ever in agreement. I won’t stroke him like his fellow comrades. With me, he’d have to find ego gratification from other avenues. If I was looking for a “yes man” I could have found that threefold at Lymebusters, where I am “safe.” I want nothing else but to get to the bottom of this problem; I might learn something here, but I don’t honestly think were going to “get to the bottom.” I have realistic expectations.
oh bullshit on the cdc finding what this is. They know already. I know they know for I have the document they have written in my hands.
Now what? I will tell you now what. As I told them, if they leave me alone; I leave them alone. I think they have given me enough. If I find out where to get the proper testing done; I will ask them to foot the tab.
I mean. c’mon. They have already given me a gift- and it just keeps on giving, so why would’nt they foot the tab?
for it proliferates> it morphs> they think they have created the perfect disease. They monitor us. I mean-they even get mad at us for finding out there darkest secrets. And they were the damn ones who started giving us the hints. Everyone knows that Tammy writes for the gov’t.
Duhhhh
and I hope to God that lady that you bloggers say is a cult leader-what’s her name, Mary? Well, I hope to God she is not in on this. Nah, no way, eh?
Well, I don’t work for Mary dammit and I’m sure the hell not one of her puppets.
I hope this is a good person with a sick son and she is going to get my butt well. Oh God I hope so……
and last thing…..I sure the hell don’t work for that nasa lady-Linn that supposedly owns Lymebusters either…….what is her name….Linn Chambers is it?
Just for asking questions that any rational person would wonder about, as to why, since the MRF was founded for a “young boy named Drew”, and the child was in the shadows for 4 years, I’ve taken a few verbal on line floggins in the past year.
Every person shamed me for wondering anything, and said that the child was suffering from lyme disease. Where is the evidence of that? It’s never been mentioned in anything that I’ve come across yet.
This spring there were on line news accounts that little Drew is now 7 years old and doing quite well. Who wouldn’t be, when his doctor diagnosed him as having eczema back in 2002. I had it when I was his age, too, and 50% of the infants and toddlers who have it, outgrow it by the time they’re school age.
I tend to think that the CDC knows what this is, and that they always have. How long the task force’s collective minds take to determine what method will be best to deal with it, is something I don’t understand.
What data do they have to base any determinations on? They’ve consistently advised people to go to their local health care providers, even in their more recent letters. Have most people cooperated, sought health care and gotten it documented? I fail to see what the task force can look at, to base decisions on.
To me, it would seem logical that people who think they have “morgellons disease” could eventually be instructed to go to their county health departments for epidemiology studies, just like the The Duval County Report from last year.
But what, exactly, is logical about any of this? If they’re going to do something, how long is it going to take them to develop a plan of action? What if government budgets can’t support this?
Well Smileykins,
If the governments budget can’t support this, maybe they should ease back on the bullets they purchase to slaughter those innocent Iraqi’s with.
Hmmm…you know what? I have a friend and his father just lives down the street from Ross Perot. Right down on Straight Lane. Maybe they should have coffee and talk. I mean, hey, he picked up a 70+ million tab
on the gulf war vets already.
but nah, I’m not going to waste my time….for I do not have too much of it left. I’m going to die of eczema poisioning and mass delusions.
Dear Tall Cotton,
Here’s one for you…..I think you will like it.
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think.”
— Adolf Hitler
PS: Would ya’ll start being mean again please? My God, I need to laugh.
I’m not a mean person. A wicked wench with a goal in sight flew in on an ill wind she blew our way.
I know enough on this government to last several lifetimes, but I do not believe there is a conspiracy to conceal “Morgellons”. I don’t believe there is a Morgellons to conceal. Yes, it would certainly be nice if the US would spend more money on health care and less money on million dollar smart bombs, but politics isn’t the purpose of this blog.
Look at the numerous, devasting, accounts of complete financial loss of the “victims of morgellons disease”. What is at fault, to cause that?
I think some Morgies have debilitating diseases, but others apparently allow things to be debilitating that shouldn’t be. Some of these people go from doctor to doctor, receiving the same diagnosis, and refuse to treat their diagnosed condition. Some have insurance, but others don’t, and doctors don’t cheap. Neiter do the coutless over the counter concoctions that are continuously experimented with. Some throw away clothes that are almost new. Others burn their couches, or haul them to the dump. They are obcessed with “Morgellons”, and all their resources go into it. It’s madness.
Complicated, yet so simply solved. Why all the resistance? (fill in the blank)
Because a delusional state is ____.
My viewpoint on the matter should be well understood at this point in time, but I had better cover me arse, stating that I am NOT discounting that physical illness is not a factor.
However, the main focus of “morgellons disease” is the outward manifestations, standing in the way of everything else.
Excuse me, I think I meant to say that I’m not discounting that physical illness is a factor. I know it is, for many. Correct thinking is required in order to deal with all matters concerning our health. Nobody can make it through the alphabet without starting at the beginning.
Mary Leitao calls Morgellons a diagnosis and DOP a label. She’s got that exactly backwards.
MHKS,
Hello Aherah.
Okay, MKHS. Michael says no, so I apologize.
Mary Leitao, as you know, also ignores emails.
I call it THIS because (1) it has no name, (2) I’m monosyllabic, (3) I’m tired of explaning what it is (4) it is THIS and it isn’t THAT.
If you want to know what THIS is do a search with the words…… jama trombiculoid
To save you time I’ll get you rolling. A trombiculiid mite is a mite that parasitizes large land mammals. A trombiculoid mite is one that has been genetically engineered to behave like a trombiculiid mite.
If you do the search correctly, you should find below site. Read it and weep. We made it ourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JAMA — Biological Warfare in the 1940s and 1950s, August 2, 2000 …
Select Journal or Resource JAMA & Archives Home JAMA Archives of Dermatology … suspect air drops they identified the reservoir of scrub typhus, the vole Microtus , and its trombiculoid …
jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/284/5/561 Cached page
like a fool I trusted you, that my email would not be published. Yet here it is in plain view. So I can assume that everything that precedes this section and everything that follows this section is a bloody lie.
but here is a truth. Monsanto is involved. They are desperately trying to find a way to kill this parasite (which they probably helped create). That is why all of their Bt Modified Food, has to be tested on this parasite, at the behest of the EPA.
David, your email address is not visible to others on this site. It has not been published.
Some one lead me please to where the stage has been prepared for the flukes match to begin. I can’t seem to find it…I hope I’m not late. But I doubt that right!?! That match was meant just for me wasn’t it guys? Ok…I’m ready for you but once again…if you want a piece of me then you must no that I wont play if you don’t fight fare. No name slangin’ or I’ll forfeit the match. Name slangin’ is a last resort when you’re stuck in the corner of the ring isn’t it…the only way you know you can get your way out of that corner huh!?! Jimbo is probably from here just like PappaSmurf. What the hell do you guys want with me now? I can’t believe I’m going to give you what you want…I’ll give you another shot. Hurry up though, I’ve got stuff to do.
Carrie
Portland, Oregon
David,
Everyone knows that “it” all started with a flukd named George. Just ask Carrie if you don’t believe me.
Tall Cotton
Don’t be so cryptic. I gave references. I’m not posting just to see opinions.
Well, why are you posting? You want some different references?
I would have liked something more than “a flukd named George”. Since then, someone else has filled me in about George, and it fills in one more piece of the puzzle.
Now I have a question for any doctor who feels secure enough to actually read here, and secure enough to still be able to think logically.
The superior being who started this blog, asserts that all of us afflicted people, shared our symptoms on the internet, and that we are somewhat of a cult, whose members crave attention and mutilate themselves to gain attention.
In the same breath he says that this disease is referred to informally as “matchbox disease, syndrome, whatever”. In fact he does not mention that “matchbox whatever” was coined in the late 1800’s, when people from far and wide were presenting themselves to doctors, with used up matchboxes full of the debris that we all know really comes from under our skin.
Further, all these people, way back then, had the same symptoms. How does Dr. “Omniscient” propose that those people, back then, intercommunicated.
In those days, most of the adults in the world were illiterate. There were no phones, slow intercontinental travel, slow mail, and little leisure time.
Did they use “tom toms”, or perhaps 2 tin cans with really long strings? Did they put bottles with notes into the water? Did they send runners, as Caesar and Incas did to spread the idea for this frivolous conspiracy.
Yet the “healers ?????” claim that this was a conspiracy, by the patients, and the conspiracy was directed against them, the doctors.
“Your Honor, I accuse these people of conspiring to annoy Doctors”.
This thinking on the part of apparently all doctors, is paranoid and delusional. That of course would be the case if the doctors really believe this impossible proposition.
Proposition :that a disconnected group of individuals, from all over the world, speaking 100s of different languages, could all come up with the same symptoms.
But of course, they don’t believe the lie they tell us. Someone discovered what the cause was, around 1900, and decided that it would make a great biological weapon. The doctors decided to say that we were delusional, and needed help. The secret was covered and the experimenting began. By at least the 40’s the newly improved parasite was in use.
They only made one mistake. Never deploy a biological, or chemical weapon for which you have no cure.
You are quite right david, it’s clearly not a case of all these people conspiring to invent the same symptoms, and the symptoms of DOP (not the same as Morgellons), have been around for hundreds of years.
But I’m not saying the symptoms are “invented”, these people really experience what they feel. It’s just in some cases they misinterpret it, and that kind of misinterpretation is amplified by reading other’s descriptions on the internet.
David, just so you know, the issue of fibers emerging from unbroken skin has been addressed on this blog. Please see the thread.
Michael, I must have caught you in the middle of redecorating last night. I rather liked the blue
Ooops, must not have closed that tag. Sorry.
That was supposed to read, “It all started with a FLUKE named George.” It was a JOKE, David, nothing more. Your theory is a joke too. The problem is that you don’t know it!
I’ll break this down to a really low level of remedial understanding in case any of the morgellons team of experts might be surfing around and looking for answers. Haha! This is as low down as I can get it. Skin is always secreting sweat and oil, ya know? That’s just the way it is. It’s been doing that since the creation of man. Those secretions are effected by our bodies’ PH levels, which effects their levels of efficiency in the invisible, protective film they bathe our skin in. This is a constant process that never ends, and proper cleansing is essential to assist in removing waste products that are trapped within that layer, without causing damage to the underlying tissue below. If adequate bathing measures aren’t adhered to, whatever is already on the skin, gets “glued inside” that epidermal tissue as the neverending secretions are constantly laid down, and dry, on our skin.
Now there. That’s how fibers appear in unbroken skin. There are answers for all the other things too.
And if anyone hears the word, “phlebitis” from their doctor, they are not meaning anything like, “flea-bite-us”.
“affected” not “effected”
Oh, poo. I’m not in school with someone gonna smack me wiff a ruler. I’m gonna have typos if I wanna.
Yeah, sorry there’s no comment editing or preview here. Still, one shot submissions strengthen the character.
I am posting this on several pages hoping the information helps even one person. I am done analyzing every itch, fiber and sore. What I have to offer here is an approach to CURE THIS DISEASE, or at least lessen the symptoms!
http://morgellonswatch.wordpress.com/2006/06/30/how-many-people-have-morgellons/#comment-5694
Dear Smilekins
then you think the US military bio-warfare program is a joke too. I was not presenting a theory.. Just facts. Go to Google and type in “Jama trombiculoid” Then write to the US military and tell them they are a joke!
Dear Smilekins
then you think the US military bio-warfare program is a joke too. I was not presenting a theory.. Just facts. Go to Google and type in “Jama trombiculoid” Then write to the US military and tell them they are a joke!
Dear Smilekins
Some things bear repeating. But I can see who is pulling your strings! Why is the US military pathological medicine Division participating in the CDC study. I thought it was supposed to be the CDC, Kaiser Permanente, and no one else!
Hello David,
I haven’t commented on this particular topic thread since 2006. Where ya been, and how ya doing at this point in time? Could you refer me to where I’d said that something is a joke, please, to save me from searching through all my old comments?
I read the JAMA letters to the editor discussing the 1998 book written by Stephen Endicott and Edward Hagerman, entitled, “The United States and Biological Warfare: Secrets from the Early Cold War and Korea”. Are you Korean, and think that this occurred to you back then? Here is an interesting article on the topic from The Asia Times, that you may have missed.
Did the US use bioweapons in Korea?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/EB13Dg03.html
I wish you well, David.
David said to Smileykins,
“then you think the US military bio-warfare program is a joke too”.
David, I think you were probably referring to a comment that I had made, not Smileykins. In speaking of the so-called Morgellons Disease, I had said that “it all started with a flukd named George.”
You then made the following comment.
# david on 25 Jul 2006 at 11:30 am
I then made the following comment.
# tallcotton on 25 Jul 2006 at 9:50 pm
As you can see, no one said that the US biological warfare program is a joke. I said that your theory is a joke. There is a big difference.
Tall Cotton
No theory in the world is a joke until proven wrong. It is not enough to say it is wrong. It has to be proven wrong. Morgellons is not a joke, even tho, a television program (ER maybe), snickered about it in one telecast. You cannot disprove a theory by calling it a joke. That is an immature schoolyard tactics.
And do you really think that entomological entities, have to clear customs? After the Korean air drops, collembola infestations began to show up in Eastern Europe, then moved on to Northern and Western Europe. From there, it could easily have found its way to N.America. I don’t have to be Korean to talk about the Korean War, do I.
I’m not religious, but you know it does say “The sins of the fathers, will be visited on the sons”
David said: “No theory in the world is a joke until proven wrong. It is not enough to say it is wrong. It has to be proven wrong. ”
David, that’s just now how science works. A theory is wrong until you prove it right. When you do a study, you have two hypothesis, the null hypothesis (which assume whatever you’re trying to prove is wrong) and the alternative hypothesis (which assumes that whatever you’re trying to prove is not proven wrong…. not even necessarily that it is right).
“Morgellons is not a joke, even tho, a television program (ER maybe), snickered about it in one telecast. You cannot disprove a theory by calling it a joke. That is an immature schoolyard tactics.”
Yeah, those schoolyard tactics…. like animating pins going through people’s heads. But who does that?
Excuse me for applying logic, David. You’d said
# david on 27 Jan 2008 at 11:55 pm
After reading excerpts of the report you referenced, I fail seeing that what those authors wrote is factual evidence. Did you not read the Asian Times’ article in the link that I gave you, David? I also saw no reason for your concern about any of it, unless you’re an older Korean guy who’d thought that had happened to him back during the war.
On a similar (but related) note, logic also tells me that some of the people considering themselves to be victims of “morgellons disease” would not be excited over news, for themselves, about discoveries being made in the treatment of HIV and AIDS, unless they have HIV or AIDS.
That’s how logic works. So, I hope that you’ll excuse me if you’re not an older Korean guy who picked up a disease from mites indigenous to your area during the war, thinking that you, instead, got something from mere rumors that the US military had anything to do with it.
Regardless, neither that, nor HIV, nor AIDS, is anything new. Can you explain why you, or anyone else, might possibly think that such things are related to what you all seem to think is a new thing called, “morgellons disease”?
Thank you,
Smileykins
I gather that you’re scared of collembola, David, which is something that quite a few “morgellons disease” patients are afraid of. I feel certain that there is no reason, outside of a phobia, to be afraid of such innocuous little creatures.
Dear Smileykins.
You are employing immature psychological techniques. Accuse the victim of something ridiculous. Collembola have been proven to be parasites of amphibians, and horses. We are somewhere in between, as horses are more evolved than us, and amphibians are an archaic dead ended species.
I, personally am not afraid of Collembola. I had never heard of Collembola before reading the NPA report. But I do fear for those who do not realize what they are dealing with. I can tell you now that the CDC is going to come up with NOTHING.
Talking about FEAR, why is the CDC afraid to do skin scrapings? After all, few of the victims have had scrapings. So why not do them now?
Happy 4th July!
What is it David that we are dealing with?
Thanks
Gillian
David,
Clearly, your post was not directed to me, but I am curious about some of your assertions.
Collembola eat plants (fungi). Where have they been proven to be parasites of amphibians or horses? Links to the answers will suffice.
I am also curious that you say “I can tell you now that the CDC is going to come up with NOTHING.” I guess that their hypothesis is, “is Morgellons a distinct medical condition?” So one of the answers to that question could be no, or it could be yes. Would you only be satisfied if their answer was yes, and then, if the answer was no, do you automatically assume there is a conspiracy?
David,
Would this be something like what you were asserting too?
….
Stamp out superbugs or pay the price, govts warned
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/07/2296199.htm
….and this
Genetically modified foods — food for thought
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/172_04_210200/huppleed/leeder.html
Genetically modified foods — safety and regulatory issues
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/172_04_210200/huppleed/huppatz.html
Monsanto Australia Ltd.
http://www.monsanto.com.au/content/cotton/rr_cotton/rarmp.pdf
Monarch butterflies and genetically modified corn
http://www.biotechnology.gov.au/index.cfm?event=object.showContent&objectID=D31ABCB3-BCD6-81AC-1E3E4ACBA3E08DA8
The World Rots Faster as Global Warming Fuels Fungi
http://www.livescience.com/environment/070405_fungus_fruiting.html