Aug 13 2006
Occam’s Hot Tub
“Morgellons Disease” is the name chosen by Mary Leitao in 2002 to represent what she thought was wrong with her son - a disease that supposedly caused eczema-like symptoms on his face, and some fibers she found in the lesions on his skin. Leitao started a web site, other people who though they had a similar disease joined her and began a campaign to publicize the “disease”. Eventually the media picked up the story, public interest grew, more people self diagnosed, people wrote to their congressmen, the CDC started an investigation, more media coverage followed, and more people self diagnose.
“Occam’s Razor” is a maxim attributed to the 14th century friar William of Occam, and goes:
“entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.”
This is often misunderstood as either “the simplest explanation is the best”, or “the shortest theory is correct”. Take the question “why is there fighting in the Middle East”, the simplest explanation is “God’s will”, but the reality is more complex.
What Occam is saying is that you should not add unnecessary entities to an explanation. However it says nothing about adding necessary entities, nor about how many of them there should be. In many cases the best explanation using Occam’s Razor is neither short, nor simple.
You also need to ask a good question to get a good answer. “What is Morgellons” is not a good question, since it presupposes that Morgellons is something. “What causes Morgellons” is worse, since it assumes the first question is answered. The question that should be asked is:
“What is wrong with all those people who say they have Morgellons?”.
Again, we could go for a simple explanation like “they were cursed by the devil”, but that’s introducing an unnecessary entity (the devil) so fails the test of Occam’s Razor. What about “they have a new disease that causes lesions and fibers”. That too introduces a new entity, a “new disease”. The question Occam would ask here is “is a new disease necessary to explain what is wrong with all the people who say they have Morgellons?”.
In other words: can we explain what is happening to the Morgellons believers without introducing a new entity, without the “new disease”.
One thing is for sure, the explanation is not simple. The wide variety of symptoms make it extremely unlikely that a single pathogen is responsible for all the cases. In fact, only the most ardent supporters of Morgellons will suggest that everyone has the same thing. Even supporter such as Dr. Wymore will concur that a large percentage of the people who post on places such as Lymebusters have some form of delusional disorder, and that the majority of the fibers are simply lint.
But I think I can phrase the answer to “what is wrong with them” in a reasonably short manner:
“They all have different health problems with a superficial symptomatic resemblence, and they mistakenly believe they have the same disease”
That’s a simple explanation. It fits the facts very well. It does not introduce any new entities. Clearly there are lots of different health problems going on. The only commonality is fibers, and that is explained in a very simple manner by them being environmental. What we have introduced here is “lots of different health problems”, but that’s not a “new entity”, since it’s already a given that they have lots of different health problems.
I’ve gone over what those health problems might be in several previous posts. This all simply explains what is going on, in a way Occam would like. But there are a few niggling problems, like red and blue fibers that do not melt at 1400F, that were extracted from under unbroken skin.
Again we are asked to believe one particular answer: “they were produced by a novel organism of a type new to science that creates fibers that can withstand temperatures that would destroy any organic material, and in several colors”, which introduces this rather complex new entity.
In this case we can produce a shorter answer for these particular fireproof fibers: “the fibers came from ouside the body, and slipped under the skin”. There are fibers outside the body, and fibers can slip under the skin, like fiberglass fibers, which melt at 2000F.
The Morgellons phenomenon is a good example of a case of Occam’s razor where the more accurate explanation is more complex than the explanation that introduces new entities. The short answer is “a new disease”, the more accurate answer is “many diseases, known and possibly unknown, combined with many environmental factors”. There’s a lot of entities in that explanation, especially when you look at individual cases, but there are no NEW entities being introduced. Just as the real explanation for the strife in the middle east is vastly more complex than “God’s will”, the real explanation for all the thousands of claims of Morgellons Disease if vastly more complex than “New Disease”.
The real answer is comprised of thousands of different stories, mini-explanations to mini-questions, sub questions to “what is going on with these people”. Like: “why would someone have fireproof blue fibers under their skin and also have neurotic excoriations”
I don’t know the right answer, but I’m going to posit a straightforward one called “Occam’s Hot Tub”.
Some time ago, the patient used a blue fiberglass hot tub. The fiberglass suffered from “fiber bloom” (prevalent in FL, CA and TX, thanks to the weather), which creates loose splinter of fiberglass. The pressure of sitting on and against the tub caused large numbers of these splinters to become embedded in the patient’s skin. The water was also contaminated with Pseudomonas aeruginosa, a bactirium that causes “hot tub folliculitis“. This developed into an itchy rash with many lesions, accompanied by a general sickness. The embedded fibers contributed to the itching. The patient scratched, which made things worse, creating new lesions, and creating an itch-scratch-itch cycle, compounded by a mild OCD. The initial rash cleared up, but the itching continued because of the now neurotic scratching. Normal fibers were found in the lesions. The patient is convinced she has Morgellons. She goes to Dr. Wymore, who extracts some of the fiberglass fibers from under the unbroken skin on her back.
Sure, it’s a long explanation, and we don’t know if it fits the facts, since we don’t know the evidence for the actual case. But if the patient had indeed been in a hot tub sometime in the past, then that would explain the blue fiber a lot simpler than a new disease would. It does not introduce any new entities.
There is no evidence presented that a new entity is required to explain. There is no need for a new disease to explain the thousands of people who self-diagnosed with Morgellons.
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you are so full of shit Michael… every disease known to man at this time was once new or considered new… new species are discovered all of the time… new syndromes are discovered all of the time…
new is part of change and changes aren’t permanant but change is you fucking clown…
so now we are gonna rely on philosophy to determine if morgellons and it’s victims are real?..
keep reaching buddy… eventually you will have to give up…
say hi to bozo for me… loser!
I think long before she met Dr. Wymore, she’d kept soaking in the hot tub too, thinking that it was going to help her. It seemed like that was making her worse every time she was in it. She even had an idea the water was contaminated, and had it checked. Her symptoms continued, so she went to her doctor with her suspicions.He blew her off, the dummy, just like the health department had, when they assured her there was nothing wrong with her water. Things continued to get worse….
much worse.
Okay, MAF, rather than thinking that hollering will make us believe in a new disease called “morgellons”, take time to tell us why you are convinced that you have it. No yelling and cursing, because that makes you seem irrational, and unable to communicate effectively.
Why do you think you have this?
a
b.
c.
d.
e.
f.
List your facts, and help us to believe.
Hi Michael - I took some fresh fibers today and put them on a oven (felt a right idiot!). Anyway my oven only goes to 250 celcius. I blasted them on this for 30 minutes. Nothing happened - they are still the same. Not hot enough I guess?
We have a new digital camera which also takes a short video. I will attempt to video what comes out of my skin. I plan to rub some oil on the skin, run my fingers through which usually will produce stuff. The skin rolls in a strange way, but by doing this with the oil will produce lots of blue fuzz and long hair like fibers.
If I do this would you be interested in having a look? I would prefer to email to you.
Thanks
There are also other common common sources of fiberglass contamination besides hottubs. Some common sources are wall and attic insulation, pipe insulation, airconditioner filters, and fiberglass boats. Of course, building remodeling is a comnmon source of these highly irritating materials.
Interesting note today. My girlfriend and I were sitting on the couch today and I was rubbing her feet. Sure enough she had a “lesion” on her foot from wearing no socks while running in her new shoes. Upon a closer examination I was able to find…..guess what…………..fibers. One black, one white. So I removed the fibers and looked at them, hmmm they matched the inside of her new running shoes to perfection. I also looked at a big cut I had from falling down wrestling my little brother, and it too had fibers in it. To shorten a long story, I have discovered in the past few weeks fibers all over various cuts on myself, my brother, and my girlfriend. Does this mean that I have “Morgellons” or does it mean that I now look for more fibers since becoming interested in this subject after seeing it on the Today Show two weeks ago. As someone with a degree in psychology I can just only say that is amazing what we can find when we look for it. I am sure I have and always have had fibers in my cuts and what not, but it was not till hearing of Morgellons I started to look for & notice them. Now if I am someone with undiagnosed skin problems and slightly OCD/anxiety prone and think that what the media tells me is the whole truth about morgellons than I may be realy scared right now.
Hey TC - I spoke with some people in NSW here in Aussie who have this. They believed it was caused by fibre. I am not sure on this one. They did a test by putting their bare arm in a bag of fibre glass. Straight away it clung to their skin (as you would kinda expect). Now after saying that - what they told me kinda confirmed my theory about the electrical charge in the body, making the body more like a magnet, therefore the body storing environmental contamination rather that the body eliminating, given the immune system wasn’t change.
I will give you my example. I had NAET done to correct my immune system which had changed. My doc said that the Rickettsi change the immune system. Well my folks then had NAET done, their immune systems had also changed, BUT they showed no exposure the Rickettsia.
I find that interesting - my doc is very keen on his theories of Rickettsia and treatment (I respect that, not knocking the man). He said earlier on in the peace that Rickettsia had changed MY immune system. His theory kinda blown given my folks. He has kept saying to me the past 12 months, I bet the Rickettsi are involved in ‘Morgellons’. I am not a rocket scientist (not yet anyway) but I would put $50 on rickettsi being there.
My reason for this: Rickettsi as we well know have been around forever. We know Julia Ceasar had it and died from it. He used to shave every single hair from his body, and then eventually he had all of them plucked out! In the end he was as mad as a hatter!
Earlier this year I learnt that more Rickettsi species had been found in Western Australia. One is know carried by the domestic cat!
My doc and another Brisbane based doc (also treats Rickettsi and has had Morgies patients)have had a massive increase in Rickettsi patienets in the past 12 months.
So to wrap up todays theory - rickettsi could be involved. I think Lyme also. I choose those two because Mosies can carry both. Blue fuzz in body ? cynobacteria, aspergillos ? Rickettsi do have flagella - but to explain the other fibers - I am not sure - they are too similar to a human hair in colour and size, but the longer clear hair like fibers I can’t explain, as well as the small black fibers that look like plastic!!
The crap (chemicals etc) that floats in our air, ozone depletion, global warming, genetically modified food, chemicals sprayed on our fruit and veg!!! blah blah blah has to be involved too.
I think the really hard question for the scientists and researchers is FINDING what CAUSED the human immune system to change.
My body really does feel like it is carrying all sorts of outdoor crap, which will probably take a long long time to break down in my skin. Stuff that should not be there. The soles of my feet are a very good example to use - I had some summer leather sandels - I rotted the soles with my sweat!! I have some slippers which have a purple coloured tag on the sole, if I wear these without socks the dye goes onto my skin. This is weird though because it really eats into the skin. The areas of skin the dye eats into is where I have most of the swelling, which has lots of grit and blue fuzz.
Whatever has changed my immune system has changed my skin - to the point where this organism moves the skin - making it tight, sticky, able to roll. You can grab the pockets of grit and infection in my tummy and breasts - it does feel really terrible. It was actually my mum that said “it is like a plant growing inside you”. It does feel that way - but plant material shouldn’t be in my body?
I have done all the right health choices my lifetime and then started the candida diet (after a positive candida test) and when the blue fuzz and grit just wouldn’t go. Unfortunately it got worse in me. I personally believe the antidepressants and antipsychotics I was put on contributed to this - one example they really slowed down my metabolism.
12 months ago I was given a prognosis - “a chance of a 70% recovery in 18 months to 2 years and to be able to return to the workforce. I say to myself 12 months to go and I WILL BE WELL!
We have a lot of unique diseases these days - especially a lot that seem to hide from the immune system (intracellular bacteria) and blood work - making it hard for folks like me to get some respect and treatment from the local doc on the corner, or anyone for that fact. The HIV epidemic, reemerging TB etc etc etc. It is just too overwhelming
I am upset that the docs in Aussie don’t follow a uniform protocol of treatment, everyone seems to be off on their own tangent. They name call other docs these days, which I never used to notice years ago. Our health department really needs to restructer the medical system. Making it uniform and everyone sticking to the same treatments, not to mention a change of attitude.
Morgellons - A mix of old diseases in a very polluted, twisted greedy world?
Am I upset with myself for finding the Morgellons Website whilst researching my own illness?
Hard question that one - my answer yes and no.
No - because I was turning up at different doctors saying I have all the symptoms of this (unknown) disease I found on the internet and I have been told it is infectious and out of hand in the USA. Help me please. Thinking back - I must have sounded completely neurotic and crazy.
No - I was put on VERY high antipsychotics - when I really didn’t need them. They have changed my brain chemisty, but hopefully time will heal that.
No - The ‘person’ who brought Morgellons to the forefront. As I said in my letter of resignation to the MRF I believe someone had insight and tried to speed up the process of something that nature never intended. Slave labour, I feel used.
Yes - having suffered this syndrome approx. 10 years, with lesion out breaks and then controlling them. Working full time, quality life etc. I coped. My symptoms in the past 4 years were the worst and most horrifying. They were very rapid, quick, noticeable to the point of taking over my life.
Yes - I think time is of the essence these days - hopefully the CDC can make some decisions on a few things, whether we have a new disease or not. The health department here told me they are aware of Morgellons, but can’t do anything until the CDC make some type of statement. I would be happy if the CDC just told Australia - YES people are sick and have fibers, we don’t know why. Please tell your doctors not to treat people like they are crazy!!
So to sum it up - I am 50/50 with finding Morgellons on the internet. Lymebusters completely did my head in - this I find extremely unfair as it is meant to be a support forum! I allowed Mary L into my life so to speak - by doing what she told me because I was very sick and vunerable.
Would things have been different for me if I hadn’t found the website?
Thinking about it today - my symptoms and suffering would have been the same, but I wouldn’t have had the worry about ‘Morgellons’ and all the other stress that goes with it, given the fact of living in Australia. My folks wanted to send my to the USA for a clinical trial and/or treatment 12 months back. That would have been a waste of money.
I can understand a large number of the Medical Community being angry at ML. She tried to change my way of thinking to the point that ALL doctors are “A” holes. She was always nice to me on the phone, and gave some good advice a lot of the time. I am not knocking the lady for the good things she did. I am so very hurt though to think her intentions were not out of pure kindness and love of fellow humans. She has no idea what pain and torture I have suffered with my illness. The recent allegations against ML do bring to light what she was all about.
Charles Holman and Cindy Casey, along with the rest of us who jumped ship from MRF , are still continuing our crusade etc, as the New Morgellons Order. They too have suffered at the hands of ML. We continue this crusade not to promote a research foundation, but to get the word out - this group of people have a lot of common symptoms (a lot which are NOT mentioned in the MRF case description), believe me symptoms NO ONE should have to suffer and PAIN no one should have to suffer is involved in this syndrome. We want people to be able to go to their doctors and be treated accordingly, if possible. Offer support,alternative treatment options, life style etc etc to those in need. Keep our fingers crossed that the CDC can act on this immediately - purely because things do need to change ASAP.
I would like to think that every university in Australia as well as USA are doing there BEST to research this syndrome.
What have I learnt in the past two weeks with all that has taken place with this syndrome and the MRF falling a part?
Good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell. Where is Hell I ask? I always thought it was the opposite to heaven (down below). I tend to think now that HELL can be right here on earth. I won’t try to explain that people, but after my last herx experience - I was very scared.
Anyway I have apologised to ‘God’ for not talking to him a lot of late, but that has changed now!! I think it is good for people to have faith in something, God, a higher power, whatever it be. Personal choice. All helps to clear the mind.
MAF, Occam’s razor is not philosophy. It’s a heuristic used in the scientific method.
Would like to share one of my other Theories - When the skin under my eyes was really bad with this infection it felt like broken glass. I used to say “Everyone is looking around for Saddams mass weapons of destruction - well I think I am carrying them”!!
So how do we find a cure for this mixed bag of diseases, and not to mention what does feel like a ‘poison’in my body, and not forgetting the fibers?!! I HAVE NO IDEA!!
Maybe this is the war that Saddam wanted us to have? Because if we keep going at the rate we have been, we will want to strangle each other!!!
Sarah, I think it’s a mistake to look for “a cure”. Each case needs to be considered individually, with individual treatments.
Very true Michael - I just wish I had found a doctor years ago that thought the same way! Rather than administer an antidepressant as a bandaid.
People who think they have morgellons each have their own illness, and in some cases a person has more than one ailment. But due to the fact that they all have fibers on their skin, in their lesions, if they have lesions, under previously broken skin, and even under skin that has never been broken, they mistakenly believe they all suffer from the same illness. Nothing could be farther from the truth. These people need to be diagnosed individually, because across the board, there are a wide variety of illnesses. Most of these people are also delusional because of the irrational ideas they have developed about these fibers and other symptoms. Some people are worse than others, but it’s easy to see that most of these people are, in fact, mentally ill. That doesn’t mean that they are any less human, or of a bad character, necessarily, but they need psychiatric care. Those are the facts, whether the patient is in denial or not.
Many such patients claim to be on various antidepressants. They have apparently chosen to ignore the repeated DOP diagnoses they’ve received in the past, and only discussed depression, openly, I suppose. As I say, I’ve never understood.
It seems too many people just don’t think it can happen to them. A human brain gets ill like any other organ. However, having said that, anyone who is well versed on the topic of delusional parasitosis knows that denial is a gigantic issue, and living proof that it is what it is. The patient always insists they know what’s going on, and the doctor is wrong.
Oh! Let me be clear I was not meaning you, Abac68!! Keep the faith, girlie.
Neither was I.
Sorry,I missed this.
Thanks, I thoroughly enjoyed that. I hope someday you’ll feel a whole lot better, MAFer, regaining your health and everything. Please avail yourself of reading my blog, by clicking on the name “Smileykins” just for fun, so you can call me some more fun names. Laughter is good for the soul, and I think my story will give you an absolute hoot.
I have read through many postings and comments on this site and thought this might be helpful. I work with senior citizens and many of them have open sores that contain fibers from hot tubs, from old cieling tiles and upholstery that deteriorates over time.
I once visited a homebound patient, a lady who was near death but insisted on living in her home until the end. Her arms, legs and back had open lesions with red and black fibers. I was deathly afraid to touch those things and always wore gloves with her. Later I found out that she spent much of her days in a back room in a red and black chair that was in horrendous condition.
My point is that there are always immunocompromised people who are susceptible to infection of any kind. Many seniors have lots of skin infections because their skin is unable to resist infection. Surfers in LA have infections of the inner ear, lips, nose and sinuses, anus and penis - all due to exposure to organisms from untreated sewage in the water. Homeless people often experience a sloughing of the skin which almost looks like advanced HIV disease, but it’s just a result of long-term environmental exposure and years of no hygiene.
I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know the answers to “Morgellons”, but it is striking to me that the vast, vast majority of sufferers are middle-aged liberal white women. My hypothesis is that lots of people have compromised immune systems and have severe skin problems and a “female hysteria” is bringing this all together as a new disease.
I am sympathetic to the suffering and I know how people suffer, but I think for a lot of people involved, it is something to obsess about, something to be excited about, etc. I want people to find relief from suffering and for the lesions to heal, but I also don’t want people to fear something that does not exist.
Jenniferth, I really appreciate your taking the time to post your observations and opinion on this blog. I am a retired medical entomologist and saw first hand many people suffering from common skin ailments to which they ascribed fantastic causes . You have seen first hand the common household fibers stuck in the lesions. Several weeks ago I forwarded the address of this site to many former collegues and suggested they follow the posts of Michael to receive rational, objective information about the so-called Morgellons fibers, etc. I know many are indeed following this blog and it is so very important that experienced rational people like you share such information. I think your post will reach many professionals dealing with this unfortunate situation and eventually help the sufferers waiting for their “mysterious fibers” to be deemed a new disease.
Please, readers, if you have supportive comments like Jenniferth, please post them.
Let me tell you these last posts really make my head spin, but in a good way. I feel I have turned the corner. Fear is a terrible part of suffering this syndrome, but you know the funny thing since I was banned from Lymebusters and once I got over the full moon and I came to Michael for some direction……..I really do feel a lot more FREE.
I must also mention that Sally (my cat) also appears to have lifted her spirits. She gets unhappy when I am down, but her and I have worked hard together to comfort each other, and it is so worth it. I have learned so much from my pets throughout my life.
Jenniferth,
Thank you so much for your contribution to this blog. I’m not a Morgellons believer but I used to be. I spent about 3 1/2 years looking for Mary Leitao’s illusive pathogen.
At first the fibers were described as hyphae-like. Then they were described as being made of cellulose. But then, that wasn’t enough. They had to be red, white, and blue. Then fluorescent. Now they must be fireproof. Whew!
Pretty soon, with all those characteristics, I had it narrowed down to a hoop-jumping bio-engineered pseudoplasmodium named dictyosteleum. Of course, before that it was a fluorescent actinomycete, and before that, even an ambrosian beetle, called xylosandrus crassiusculus.
It looked like the bug to me, that was pulled out of Drew’s lip. Of course, that wasn’t anything but blanket fuzz, and I was on heavy doses of crystal meth. It almost killed me, so I quit using 2 years ago. I was crazy on that stuff.
I’ve watched “this” thing do some pretty cool tricks and I know where fear can take you. I was fortunate to have ever made it back to the real world, any world.
I’m not a believer any more, and I feel that the belief can be quite harmful for those who ignore their doctor’s diagnoses.
Through the message boards of the believers, they learn to distrust their doctors, especially dermatologists, and they forgo needed medication for serious conditions, like diabetes mellitus, krohn’s syndrome, rickettsia (Not you Sarah), sarcoidosis, and others. Those groups are cults and they are quite dangerous, not only for the patient, but also their unfortunate children and pets.
Some also need psychiatric medications, at least something for anxiety and depression. I take meds for both of those. I don’t care who calls me crazy. I really don’t. I know who and what I am.
If I need meds, I want to take them, and I do need them. I believe that Mary Leitao let her bruised ego get the best of her, and she obviously thought she knew more than her doctors. Her education apparently went to her head.
Well, she created a big, harmful mess, and she has helped to twist so many people’s thoughts. Thanks again for your very sensible contribution.
Sarah Connor,
We were just talking about how much you seem to have changed for the better. You seem to have come to understand that we aren’t against you. We are for you and your healing. You had plenty of reasons to be angry, but you seem to be handling it very, very, well. Congradulations.
Tall Cotton
I’m glad I checked back this evening. Thank you for the feedback. I do want to empasize that I do get very upset knowing that people are suffering with intolerable symptoms. It’s a horror to suffer, lose sleep and have people avoid you - when you don’t know what is going on.
I have been fascinated by this phenomenon, and as a RN for many years, let me tell you, I’ve seen it all. Many things they don’t tell you about in school. I once lanced an abcess on a homeless mans face and thousands of little flies came out. Another time, I saw worm specimens taken from the colon of a sushi eater. When our immune system is weakened, Mother Nature allows all the other organisms to take advantage. It isn’t pretty but it’s real.
One thing to keep in mind is that we really are a “holistic” part of Earth. We are “on one level” just another part of Earth’s environment. When we die, even if we are buried in a sealed box, our body will decompose from the organisms that live on us and in us all the time. Remember that ordinary bacteria on the skin is foreign. E-Coli is foreign. Geez, even the mitochondria in the inner parts of the cell are considered foreign incorporations into human biology. We are very much part of Earth’s biology and we are interdependent with it. The “trick” is to stay healthy, don’t do chemicals and be as clear-headed as we can be. Even with being careful, it’s a miracle that humans make it to adulthood with all the things that can go wrong along the way.
If I have any general advice to share, it’s that our bodies naturally strive to be healthy and correct problems, but our attitudes and beliefs have a huge impact on this.
I wholeheartedly agree. The human immune system is a very remarkable thing. It is capable of healing almost all, if not all, diseases. Of course, in order to accomplish that, it needs to be kept in optimum condition. When the immunity is compromised, even the normal flora becomes pathogenic. Not only is the integrity of the skin breached, but also that of the subcutaneous tissues, and the vital organs. The chemicals in the body become natural pheremones, attracting every kind of microorganism and arthropod imaginable. And the body has little or no defense against them.
WOW!!! We certainly do have a great bunch of intelligent people on this blog. Thank you TC for your kind words - awful isn’t it that you had to become a “TallCotton” so to speak to understand the mess that a selfish, self centered woman created. I love your description of the disease - your research was incredible!!! But you and I and hopefully many others will understand that we have to learn from this research, find a better place, find a balance. We will never have all the answers about life as we know, other planets, the unknown whatever!
I listen to myself and nuture my inner child, I feel someone or something tried to steel my inner child. I am my own best doctor, but heck if the rickettsia infection starts to flare up a bit - well I will work on it. I think a strong mind can help me more though, man made medicine isn’t always the answer, it can help, but it won’t bring ya back home. The good lord didn’t give us a handbook on life and the working of the human body and mind, he did this for a reason. I believe a very good reason. He protects us from harm.
I would go insane if I continued to research my ‘bug’, with all my travel and living in different countries, where would one begin!! I would be better off trying to reinvent the wheel maybe, at least the wheel isn’t going to hurt me!!
Last year I saw a Naturopath before I received any Rickettsia treatment. This lady was really nice. She learnt my history, health issues etc. She told me she was amazed I was still alive - not due to bad life style, or the wrong food…. because I had had such a little life filled with a lot of stress. I do dig my heels in a lot and this is why I am still alive. I never forget what that lady told me, hence to say I don’t need to pay her very expensive bills to get better. I just took her advice and put into place what I can afford.
I do believe in Karma - and if someone has brought about wrong in this world - it will come back on them.
I can not explain Morgellons disease, my theory today - enough stress, being stepped on by people, not loving yourself and not being able to say NO - will set the foundations in motion.
When I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, the Rheumatologist was a lovely man, I had worked in the same hospital as him. He explained Fibromyalgia to me in laymans terms, he said people who suffer from this sometimes have trouble saying ‘NO’, some have suffered abuse or sexual abuse in their past and need some counselling. I did take all his advice. I have learnt a lot from counselling. A counsellor will not ‘fix’ your problems, but will plant helpful seeds to set you on the right path.
I learnt as a kid ‘money makes the world go around’, coming from a small loving family, my folks being children in the war - they did it hard. Money does help us live our lives - but it won’t bring happiness or inner peace.
Education, power struggle, attention seeking, selfish, self consumed, greed, preying on the sick and vulnerable - Mary Leitao.
If you asked me 10 years ago if one person could create such a disaster I would have said no way - but she has - how she did it - I don’t know - and I don’t want to know at this point in my life. I believe in fate and the truth. I do not wish harm on this woman, I am not that sort of person - but I ask myself - why do I hurt so much? why have I hurt so much in my quest to find an answer? A human being with ailing health still has compassion in their heart, so naturally they want to help others, which I tried to do. Mixed messages, gossip and lies has never been my cuppa tea, but I believe it will always lead one into more problems.
Thank you, indeed, jenniferh. I basically made nothing but a whole lot of enemies on lymebusters’ message board, in the past, trying to stress some of the points you’ve made. In a very puzzling way to me (at the time), it only angered most of the people there. I gave better than my best shot, in saying that good nutrition and striving for optimal health wouldn’t provide a favorable dwelling for what they think infests them all. Many gave accounts of tearing themselves down all the time, in various ways, unaware of it, just trying to kill the morgie creatures. I’ve learned a whole lot since those days, from growing into a realization that it really wasn’t that easy a thing for most of them to follow, and definitely not so simply solved, as I had thought at first.
Sarach, my pets keep me going, also. I want you to continue improving and I’m praying for it. (Now, that doesn’t mean I’m slamming a Bible over your head or trying to perform an exorcism, hahaha.)
Smileykins - due to the itch in my scalp which comes and goes, I don’t think the bible on my head would help the itch!! I will continue to improve, don’t you worry about that one!!
Hi Sarah,
I’m really glad you’re feeling better. As an observer, it was frightening, how frantic you were during the MRF Meltdown. Even then, though, I thought being banned from LB could only be a very good thing for you.
When you feel like it (or never, if you don’t) you should read up a bit on how cults operate. Yes, cults are usually religious in nature, but the principles are the same for any closed community that wishes to control its members.
I did not hear the radio broadcast last week, but regardless of anything that was said on the show, you did neutralize one of the most powerful (and under-handed) weapons at ML’s disposal. You gave your real name. Now you never have to worry that someone will be dispatched to do to you what you were sent to do to TC.
Congratulations, that took guts.
Best wishes for your continued recovery.
For those of you who have symptoms, I wish you the best of luck. One thing we’ve done as nurse practitioners in the last few years (when we were stumped on what to do) was to email as many doctors as we could find when there was a set of symptoms that didn’t seem to make sense.
About half the doctors will respond or have someone send information on where to seek help. Don’t dismiss doctors in any field. Most of the medical people I’ve worked with love resolving mysteries. We want to kill the bugs and send people home feeling better. So, use email to ask doctors for help. Keep your inquiry short and concise and you’ll get help more often than not.
Just to give you an example, we had a lady in for primary pulmonary hypertension (PPH). Usually, this is from taking diet drugs or amphetamines, but the woman had no history. We emailed everyone we could and a doctor in Puerto Rico suggested a blood-borne organism. That turned out to be the cause. So, use the minds of as many doctors as you can. Sometimes it helps.
Thank you all for your support and kind words. My inner child still has a question, I can’t keep her down!!
Where does Wymore the Scientist and the collection of Research money come into this??
Send me an email if you don’t want to explain on the blog, but heck we have nothing to hide. Can you help me out please?
Thank you.
P.S. I had a quick peck a boo at “Cults” - WOW - what a mess. So glad I get to spend a lot of time on my own - it is very good for the soul.
Sarah,
When you walked away from the MRF and Lymebusters, did you feel like you walked out of a dark fog, or out from under a black cloud, so to speak. My guess is yes. By the same token, when Wymore attached himself to this so-called disease, he entered the same region of darkness. Anyone can go there, but few find their way out of the fog and make their return. I’ll surely catch flak for saying what I just said, but I’ve said it for those who can accept it. No one is immune to the darkness. I have said that I am, but I know that one has to always guard their thoughts. It’s a place of deception. Keep walking into the light and you can’t go wrong.
Tall Cotton
I think Wymore believes he’s doing the right thing. I think he likes the idea of discovering a new pathogen. I don’t know how the contributions at MRF fit in, but Wymore seems like an honest man. Just one who has been a bit hasty in participating in the MRF publicity extravaganza. I think when his research moves to the epidemiological stage (where it should have started), the true diversity of Morgellons will be revealed, and the significance of his isolated fiber tests will be put into perspective.
I never doubted Rr. Wymore’s honesty, but I think that the lust for fame can sometime blind an honest man. This would have been a real good opportunity for him, had the disease been real. I hope he knows when to let go of the merry-go-round. I still think Oklahoma ought to stick with football. I can say that since I was born there.
You are an amazing lady, Sarach. Haha, see now? Truth is not a place where shame can reside. TC and I haven’t anything to hide, and anyone’s twisting of the meanings of our accounts in our blog, having tried to use them as some kind of stupid weapons against us, has meant nothing. The state of mind the ones doing it are in, is the matter of geniune concern. We have done nothing to them, and they’ve aired what their problems are for all eyes to see. It hasn’t all been a lack of comprehension. Any dummy can see what it’s been. They’re protecting what they feel has been threatened. Creepy, huh?
I used to read the progress letters Dr. Wymore issued, and while morgie people were always thrilled upon seeing them, they did nothing for me but say a whole lot of nothing, reminding me of a politician speaking. Observing his speech patterns, voice inflections, and body language, I still have my original opinions. Any person with a scientific background that is involved in this defies logic, to me. If he didn’t familiarize himself with what “morgellons disease” is, before choosing to jump into it, pardon me, but I can’t be anything other than suspicious.
TC - Yes the fog has lifted, but because Tony (the person I live with) has been exposed to ALL of this and ML on the phone, it is a real fight, but a fight I will continue. He is an alcoholic. I am slowly trying to plant some good seeds to help him to help us. If I walk away from him I feel it is unfinished business, or is it just more curiousity?
I think what has helped my healing - has been the introduction of a circulation booster, works on accupressure points etc. It was invented by docs and electronic engineers. I am starting to sleep better, my skin is improving in an amazing way (it is what I feel happening on the inside). Now Tony went and bought this to make me feel better and said this will make you better. He has method in his madness, he wants to be rid of this too!! He just to be able to keep drinking as well.
I spoke with him today and tried to make him see sense by reminding him of divorce and lost love and the grieving process. I tried to encourage him that it is now time to move on from that. Find a balance, don’t let the drink control you. Everything in moderation. Because I do understand the pain we all have had to bare through this strangeness, I have compassion and don’t want to see him suffer, but I am aware he is not my total responsibility.
I too would like to think that Dr Wymore is a good man - BUT I still have my suspicion, I do hope that time will tell. Through the grapevine I was told he is well aware of ML and apparently figured out something was wrong or not quite right with her. Doc Smith said exactly the same thing. Chas same about ML and Drew. He said when they met at the UNI. with Doc Wymore Drew was out of control running around, ML didn’t give a damn. Apparently docs told Chas they believe she is quite typical of borderline personality disorder. I did have a quick look into this (read up), but Chas was right, scary shit. Chas is a lovely man to talk to. I believe his heart is in the right place, loves his wife. He wants to help raise funds for Dr Wymore because HE believes HE is doing the right thing, to help others not suffer anymore.
I have written to Dr Wymore, but still awaiting a reply, but he did to reply to an email about media???. I wanted to take him down the track of genetics and said I really feel I would be a good example since 4 generations are still on earth, but with my Grandma alive and well, and also very selfish, she kinda pulls on my strings at times. Can’t explain it much better than that. So if he is into Science I would really love him to read this blog to let him know that the answer is not really totally in the fibers (or is it?). Can you look at lots of things? Anyway you folks are older than I and maybe a bit more wiser with experience, so add some more and help me along please. Thank you.
Sarah,
I don’t know Tony, but I’ve known some alcoholics. Alcoholics can’t drink alcohol in moderation. Many, many, people have had to come to that sad conclusion, and accept it. Very, very, few succeed in quitting, percentage wise. I’m not saying he will or won’t, and I don’t even know if he would consider it, but like they say, first the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. The hardest thing for an alcoholic to have is rigorous honesty. They try to rationalize their every behavior. And they are always “building up to drink”. I don’t know what you think of this man, but if you have the strength to let him go, he knows as well as I do, that that is your best chance for happiness. I’m just speaking averages. I wouldn’t wish an alcoholic life on any spouse, male or female. You’re in a lobster cage. There’s no door on top. Its open, and your free to come and go, except for the other lobster. The other lobster will pull you back in if you try to excape the alcohol. You have to be very wise, and put yourself and your emotional health first. If you don’t, no one else will. No one can force you to believe their twisted words if you take hold of the truth and stand your ground.
P.S. Charles Holman is very mentally disturbed. His wife’s lesions are neurotic excoriations. His thinking is totally Morgie, and very irrational.
Tall Cotton
I feel Chaz is a bright man, and I enjoyed him when I was on lymebusters message board. I also empathize with the situation he found himself in, and I don’t know that he had any other real choice than to fall into this the way he has, thinking it’s the right thing to do. At first, I had thought Cindy could have acquired an infection on her job, but finding out that he hadn’t contracted, I knew that wasn’t the case. It wasn’t until viewed her pictures last month, that it knocked me flat out into the floor!!!
Hi guys,
Sara, Hi there, how is it you are doing so much better, so quickly? Just last week you were in pain(physical) and the week before that in a stated you described as confusion?
I’m not doubting you a bit, just wanted your opinion of the rapid progression in your health improvements. Also, Sara, as you well know I have been saying for 3 months now that I felt this disorder was related to a ricksettsial one.
I am wondering what type of test your doctor did to prove this. (again, not doubting you, just wanting to know for myself….)
What type species was involved? I recall you saying you fell ill during a trip to Austin Texas 8 years ago right?
Did you get hoswpitalized and tested while you were in the US or did you wait until you were back in Australia? I am wanting to know this question simply for the latency of the disease. And Sara, last question, Which did your Doctor call it: Cat-scratch Fever or Cat-scratch disease?
To Michael, Smiley and TC,
I’m very glad you guys are being nice to Sara. You guys really might have a heart afterall, huh? Hey, with the above being said I’m confused about one thing….that is:
You guys praise Sara for dropping her affiliations w/ MRF and LB but in the very same post (referring to one up above by Sara where she says she no longer associates w/those organizations, she blatently says she has joined another one. That is what I don’t get….I mean what is the difference of this new one compared to the old one and LB if people are still saying Morgellons Disease> please note that I am in no way trying to be difficult, but my Lord, I just want to know why one is okay and the other is delusional parasitosis (this last sentence did not come out right, but you can gather what I am talking about.,)
Thanks a lot.
PS: Sara and all: Last week on that radio show, Greg also announced he had been diagnosed as having cat-scratch disease….did anyone else hear that too?
Thanks,
London
The crap (chemicals etc) that floats in our air, ozone depletion, global warming, genetically modified food, chemicals sprayed on our fruit and veg!!! blah blah blah has to be involved too
(*cute Sara, Gillian……Hey, How’s Judy?) HAHA
Sara, your name almost reminds me (you know, the sound and similarieties of…..you go by Gillian and the word I have been studtying is blue-green, just like the fake-ass cyanobacteria….you know, the one…..GALLIUM!!!!!
Michael,
Hey, remember about a week ago (if even that long) I was talking about computera aND FIBERS, ETC., WELL, you came back and said it was nothing to do with Biology…..and to learn more before I post, etc, ….
Anyway, I ran across this very recent article and it is very scientific related….to be specific, it talks of Ligand -binding, carbohydrates & glycobiology….
Here you go,
Cheers,
London
http://carb.ibch.ru/pdf/cv268.pdf
London, yes that article is very “scientific”, but what does it have to do with Morgellons beyond containing a few key words.
Can you describe in less than 100 non-scientific words, what the paper is about? If not, then don’t post it. Read it first.
In a more sensible post, London said:
I don’t think there is currently any appreciable difference in the science between the MRF and the unfortunately named New Morgellons Order. They both think there is enough evidence to call Morgellons a new disease that produces fibers and lesions, something that I feel strongly is not the case. I don’t know if one is “better” than the other, as neither has done much since the split. I feel Sarah/abac68 would better off taking some time off from the Morgellons community for a while, and focussing on her own health and happiness.
Hello again,
I was discussing these skin lesions at work today and had a thought. It could be with some patients that fibers entered the body in some manner and are simply working themselves out through the skin.
We had a patient last year who came in with little red bumps all over the bottom of his foot. As we looked closely at the bumps, there were slight glints of light from something shiny. Long story short, we pulled out dozens of glass splinters.
Suddenly our patient had a memory flash. Three months before, he had stepped on a patch of broken glass with no shoe on. He cleaned the foot and stayed off it for almost a month. His foot healed and there were callouses. However, his skin wasn’t finished healing and when he started walking on it regularly, his skin started pushing the glass bits out again.
What I’m wondering is if some type of building material or insulation was accidently ingested by people who have fibers. Unless a fungus or a nemotode is involved, skin lesions heal fairly quickly. Of course there are exceptions. I’ve seen tiny staph infections that have taken over a year to fully resolve.
Anyway, I’m still very interested in reading on this topic if anyone has suggestions. Thanks.
I’ve heard of things like that several times, JeezeLouise mentioned she had the same thing happen with a car crash. But I’ve hardly been able to find any other mentions on the internet. Can anyone suggest a good resource for examples and the mechanics of how this can work.
Hey Hugh,
I think i HAVE GUESSED YOUR PROJECT THAT YOU THREW THE HINTS OUT TO ME TWO WEEKS AGO ON…..
IS THIS IT? ALSO, BIG NEWS IN THE LAPTOP FIELD TODAY, IS IT NOT EVERY ONE????
mARGELLONS, WHAT THIS HAS TO DO WITH IT IS EVERYTHINGL
tHE FIBERS IN US ARE FIBER OPTICS…..
THE FAKE-ARSE CYANOBACTERA…..ALL IT IS IS THE gILLIUM!!!
AND COULD’NT FORGET ABOUT THE WHITE LIGHTS YOU KNOW….
HUGH, HERE YOU GO, IS THIS IT?
http://www.brukeroptics.de/downloads/opticsnews_vol4_1-2003.pdf
YEAH , WE GOT A WASTE MANAGEMENT PROBLEM HAPPENING….
AND DAMMIT, ITY IS CALLED ELECTRONIC WASTE!
Not being blind to the circumstances is what’s it’s all about, London. (What you’d addressed to us, earlier)
Anyway, under the topic “MRF Accounting Problems”, in comment # 71, when I’d said to SarachConnor/Abac68:
I’d been thinking along the lines of her distancing herself from anybody (not “just” Mary Leitao) who’s associated with the belief of something called, “morgellons disease”. I had assumed that Sarach was at a turning point, and ready to put all of it behind her. Both organizations are just as dangerous to a vulnerable population, in my opinion.
Thanks Smiley! You were right, I missed your post entirely to her. Thanks again…..
oh Hugh R Delusional, alert here:
http://www.newstarget.com/fuel_cells.html
This is for HUGHT too, I honestly meant to hyperlink it in the last post…I do so apologize for having to post again, I do.
But Hugh, I bet this was what you were hinting around to me, yeah right?
London
http://newsroom.spie.org/x3841.xml
Michael, look here:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2004-01/1075607078.Gb.r.html
That’s posted by an MD (but clearly a poor typist), and includes some interesting comments:
“When I worked in a fiberglass plant making different things (summer job/college)I would get exposed to glasss dust, fragments and pigments. For about a year afterwards I would experience minor itching and then a piece would come out. Also coughed up and out pigments, etc.”
Michael, search on “foreign body reaction encapsulation” for info on how the body treats objects it cannot immediately expel.
I’m finding tons of pages, mostly dealing with ways to prevent rejection of implantable medical devices. Obviously, the mechanics of the physical response are the same.
Sorry, include “expulsion” in your search terms.
Interesting stuff, now I know the right search terms. Also try:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Subcutaneous+foreign+body+years
gets
http://www.ncemi.org/cse/cse1108.htm
“If you are unable to locate the foreign body in 15-30 minutes, inform the patient that in the case of a small metal fleck, the wound will probably heal without any problem. It may migrate to the skin surface over a period of months or years, at which time it can be more easily removed.”
All in all, it makes the fiberglass theory seem quite reasonable.
Remember this is only one theoretical explanation for one particular case, and maybe only one fiber in that case. But it’s a simple explanation that would please William.
Thanks a lot Jeeves, I’m glad they are looking at least, that is all a lot of us want, just some friggin help. I cannot tell you the pain it causes some days. Yesterday I was back at work and it felt like the area behind my knees (on back of leg) were going to explode with pain…(I assume from standing so much my first day at work, dunno) but when I got home and looked at my the back of my legs in the mirror….my, I found that they had nearly exploded….they were blue as in being bruised and these varicose veins (which I have never had one in my life ) were jetting out and down my leg about two inches.
This sucks rocks….
anyway, dunno if the Natiuonal Scienc Foundation is really trying to help or hurt us further….see:
Jackson State University (partnered with the University of California, Santa Barbara MRSEC): $2.75 million
This partnership will focus on the development and application of new materials–specifically, 1) organic semiconductors based on small molecules or conjugated polymers which have potential applications ranging from electronic circuitry to flexible displays, and from solar cells to biological and chemical sensors; and 2) optical nanosystems that use laser-induced fluorescence techniques to detect DNA damage, RNA interaction and modification of nucleic acids. The proposed research is of fundamental scientific interest as well as a crucial component in the development of state-of-the-art devices and sensors
London, scientists are doing research into all kinds of crazy stuff. If you look for some key words, you’ll find scientists doing research into something related to those key words.
But what has fiber optics got to do with YOUR CONDITION?
Fiber optics are long fibers of glass, along which light can travel, mainly used for telecommunications, but also in any applications where a light signal needs transmitting over a distance.
London, you are not understanding what you are reading. Please do not post things unless you can understand and explain them, at least to the level of showing how they might be relevent.
Yeah, Michael, finding the right search terms is the trick
In fact, when most of the shards of glass had been removed after my accident, the ER doctor determined that digging around to get the rest would cause far more scarring than just stitching it all up and letting the stuff work out on its own, which it has been doing for many years since.
And yes, I do have encapsulation, such that when the shard is finally expelled, it does not look like glass at all.
Hi, London. If there’s a way to avoid standing for lenthy periods of time, try to. When you’re home, try to keep your legs elevated as much as you can.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2760.htm#target2
Our bodies produce foreign body granulomas, and of course, immune granulomas too, of which I have often wondered if people who pick and probe their skin are getting them out. I know of two “believers” with sarcoidosis.
•Almost any inert foreign body, such as pieces of glass, crystalline materials, talc, and pieces of soil can generate a foreign body granuloma.
http://pathweb.uchc.edu/eAtlas/Bone/1178.htm
Ya know Michael, I hadn’t decided what I think this thing is yet. You are hinting at yet another theory I consider: the fiberglass/immune response theory. Prior to my son’s itchy blue-back incident, I had been hiding Christmas presents in the attic, consequently stirring around a lot of fiberglass. Of course, this explains my expousure more than his since he wasn’t there when I was hiding the presents. I am well aware that others have reported symptoms similar to Morgellons after having been exposed to fiberglass as well; they knew that fiberglass was the real problem as is described here: http://www.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7904853&dopt=Abstract . My problem with this theory is that many construction people work with fiberglass all of the time. If Morgellons was an immune response to fiberglass, why aren’t more of them coming down with it?
ah
This may be of some small interest to a few.
Dr. Peter Lynch of the University of California also referred to it in this old “morgellons disease” article:
http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/05/08/70307.php
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/Health/getbetter.htm
(That night I’d heard the words, “morgellons disease” for the first time, I’d told of my fiberglasss incident upon my arrival at Lymebusters.)
SarachConnor comment: Where does Wymore the Scientist and the collection of Research money come into this??
Unless you donate straight to OSU there may not be a fast research into this - the MRF won’t send any of their donated research money to Dr. Wymore. There donations need to go to ‘media’ so they can get the word out there.
Michael comment: Just one who has been a bit hasty in participating in the MRF publicity extravaganza.
This was a way for Mary L. to “use” Dr. Wymore to get people to send “research” money which never made it to “research”. Dr. Wymore is trying to solve a mystery of what is Morgellons so that when people go the doctors they will help these people. Dr. Wymore is a sweet sweet person with a HUGE HEART. Everybody has posted that morgellons is from a wasp, fly, this and that - so why do the doctors not say this when people come into their office instead of say “oops your DOP”?
Tall Cotton comment: P.S. Charles Holman is very mentally disturbed. His wife’s lesions are neurotic excoriations. His thinking is totally Morgie, and very irrational.
When was the last time you talked ot Charles? As of yesterday when I talked to him he seemed NOT mentally disturbed. Come to think of it for the last 11 YEARS I haven’t seen him mentally disturbed, hmmmm. So please explain in detail from your personal EXPERENCE of a one on one face to face moment with Mr. Charles Holman that you feel he is Mentally disturbed?
Michael comment: I don’t think there is currently any appreciable difference in the science between the MRF and the unfortunately named New Morgellons Order.
# 1 difference - New Morgellons Order does not take donations THE ONLY LINK FOR DONATIONS IS THE OSU LINK!!!.
# 2 difference - Nurses Panel to help people with morgellons.
Plus New stuff to HELP people with SUPPORT, UNDERSTANDING, and truely CARING PEOPLE that is not out to get your money like the MRF.
So let just say 6 months or whenever that somebody in the world FINALLY comes back with “Morgellons is TRUELY this….” “here is the treatment….” then all can get THERE LIVES BACK - but until this day comes PEOPLE NEED SUPPORT and that is WHAT the New Morgellons Order is providing for people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Plus just a FYI - Michael has to be Bill Gates !!! LOLOLOL
Sorry if this link has already been posted:
http://www.carnicom.com/morgobs1.htm
very interesting
The links everyone put up were helpful. I did also read through the morgellons.org site, but it seemed to be narrowly focused on confirming a new disease. I’m wondering if “a boy named Drew” has a mom living her dreams through Munchausen’s by proxy. I hope that is not the case.
I have another old case to share. Our resident physician had a 50 year old man come in complaining that little black and gray lumps were coming out of his arm on his bicep all the way to his forearm. They were real and coming up through the skin. The mystery was solved when an old abrasion scar was found on the shoulder. Years before, the man had been in a serious motorcycle accident. His shoulder injury had healed but the asphalt fragments in the wound had migrated down his arm and were being expelled through the skin. This was about twenty years after the shoulder wound had healed.
I really feel our skin is our most dynamic organ. It can be a very good reflection of our emotional state or the health of the nervous system. I’ve seen psychiatric patients with neurotic excoriations have a complete recovery when they lose control and have to go on thorazine for a few weeks. When the mind has the “volume turned down” so to speak, the skin has a chance to recover.
Anyway, at the very least, I’ve gotten our staff doc to do some reading on this Morgellons phenomenon. I’ve kind of turned our office into a CSI meeting and we have had some interesting discussions. Hopefully more answers will come.
Munchausen’s by proxy was the original diagnosis. But does it apply in a situation where the mother thought she was correct (like with a delusional disorder), or is Munchausen’s only when something is being faked?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Munchausen%27s+by+proxy+leitao
JenniferH please read the following diary for your research:
If you would like to contact Cindy Casey or Charles Holman you can at the following website:
http://www.cherokeechas.com
TexasRose, regarding the link you posted, how do those fibers differ from these?
http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM107Lab/MicroscopePics/InsideAirPollution.htm
esecially this one:
http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM107Lab/MicroscopePics/liquidGlobs.jpg
To London,
I don’t remember the thread in which we were talking about it, but I had noticed that you had a question about my opinion on Sarah’s possible involvement with the cherokeechas group. I don’t think it’s a good idea, and to be honest, it really register that heavily. i was looking for improvement and I consider Sarah’s dissociation with MRF and Lymebusters to be a big step in the right direction, but I’ve read Chas’ diary, and I would not recommend his website to anyone. I think you made an excellent point.
Tall Cotton
The subcutaneous foreign body theory is very interesting, but don’t forget it’s just one of many needed theories to explain what is going on with all the Morgellons believers.
Fiberglass dermatitis might explain some cases, hot tub folliculitus others, meth bugs another, other diseases, delusions and environmental factors will explain other cases.
If you ever read “Maybe Morgellons is ….” then exercise caution, since Morgellons is NOT one thing. The evidence indicates that people who believe they have Morgellons all have different health problems with a superficial symptomatic resemblance, and they mistakenly believe they have the same disease.
Actually I would recommend Chas’s diary (and Cindy’s recent history) to anyone interest in getting a look at a segment of the progression of a Morgellons believer. Here is someone who scratches herself and admits to antibiotic seeking behaviour to the extent of stealing them at work. I have a lot of sympathy for Cindy, and I’m very sorry that she is ill, but I don’t think her belief in Morgellons is going to help her, or others.
http://cherokeechas.com/cindyc.htm
http://cherokeechas.com/Morg01.htm
I think that Wymore’s attempt to melt some fibers from a Morgellons believer is a step in the right direction. It’s been mentioned that the high melting point excludes the possibility of those fibers being organic material. This not only means that the fibers aren’t living human tissue, but it is also a real good indication that the fibers aren’t disease organisms. If the fibers can’t be organic, then they can’t be germs, worms, or bugs either. In some cases, however, these fibers may cause irritation and slow down the healing process of injured tissue. This would probably be the case if some of the fibers are fiberglass or asbestos.
I agree those fibers were probably something like fiberglass or asbestos - but remember this is just THREE FIBERS we are talking about (maybe just one, with the heat test). I suspect the vast majority of fibers that believers find are more common environmental fibers like cotton, hair, polyester, wool or paper. Wymore has said he just ignores those fibers when he finds them.
While Occam is not my first choice in philosophy, my brother, who happens to be a PhD in Forensic Anthro, and I talked about your reliance upon Occam in your arguments, Michael. He felt that you apply Occam in an unrealistic manner. Take this quote:
“But uncertainty and the non-existence of the ether can not be deduced from Occam’s Razor alone. It can separate two theories which make the same predictions but does not rule out other theories which might make a different prediction. Empirical evidence is also required and Occam himself argued for empiricism, not against it.
Ernst Mach advocated a version of Occam’s razor which he called the Principle of Economy, stating that “Scientists must use the simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude everything not perceived by the senses.” Taken to its logical conclusion this philosophy becomes positivism; the belief that there is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn’t exist at all. Mach influenced Einstein when he argued that space and time are not absolute but he also applied positivism to molecules. Mach and his followers claimed that molecules were metaphysical because they were too small to detect directly. This was despite the success the molecular theory had in explaining chemical reactions and thermodynamics. It is ironic that while applying the principle of economy to throw out the concept of the ether and an absolute rest frame, Einstein published almost simultaneously a paper on Brownian motion which confirmed the reality of molecules and thus dealt a blow against the use of positivism. The moral of this story is that Occam’s razor should not be wielded blindly. As Einstein put it in his Autobiographical notes
“This is an interesting example of the fact that even scholars of audacious spirit and fine instinct can be obstructed in the interpretation of facts by philosophical prejudices.’”
http://www.weburbia.com/physics/occam.html
As I said before, Occam is not one I know much about, but there does seem to be a belief that one can use his logic to arrive at illogical conclusions. Or, maybe, molecules are only metaphysical and Einstein’s accomplishments were just a delusion (?). This simplest answer isn’t necessarily the right one, but it sure is the easiest one.
ah
Aherah, much as I love a fancy philosohical discussion, Occam’s Razor is just a useful heuristic, a rule of thumb that helps you focus on what is essential (what entities are necessary) in a theory.
Since the definition of both “entities” and “necessary” are open to interpretation, you can obviously use this “logic” to arrive at “illogical conclusions”.
Occam’s razor should not be wielded blindly, and nor should any philosophical or linguistic construct. But Mach was right, molecules WERE a metaphysical construct, then, as now, molecules are an abstraction of reality, something that closely models what is going on, but does not actually represent it. Molecules are just collections of atoms, which are made from electron, neutrons, and protons, which are comprized of quarks, guage bosons and leptons, which are themselves supposedly just the four dimensional vibrational cross-sections of ten dimensional super-strings. The fact that they push smoke particles around does not make them real, it just confirmed the accuracy of the model.
Instead of attacking poor William, why not point out what is actually wrong with my argument.
Michael looked at your links - it states :
This is Melissa. She is using the air pump to pass room air through a cotton swab, which can trap particles in the air.
So those fiber are cotton on those links - so does that mean our skin has absorbed cotton fibers then once our skin gets done eating and is full it turns around and get them to crawl back out of the skin so everybody gets itchy so Doctors can say people are DOP? So if this is the case - why doesn’t doctors say “sorry your skins is full up, go home and scatch away so it can absorb more the rest of your life”
Today is really not a good day - but I would like someone to just say with “proof” what the heck it is. Yes we can blog, forum, and board away what WE THINK it is - but people are still itchy out there.
NOW WHAT???
It means that one person sent some fibers to some guy, who looked at them under a microscope, and they resembled cotton.
You can’t extrapolate this one incident to anything, it proves nothing, and suggests very little.
Cotton is the most common of all fibers (except maybe paper), and the most likely to get stuck in lesions. The simplest explanation is that the particular person who sent this in found some cotton fibers stuck in her lesions, and they got there from the environment.
I’m sorry you are ill, but you should not be looking for the cause of “this”, since “this” appears to be different for everyone. Focus on what is wrong with you. What does your doctor say about you?
Sorry Michael but can’t tell my story - I, like you have to stay a secret a bit longer - do to the fact that TexasRose is posting the injustice of the MRF, Mary, Cowles and the new board Chairman. Which I am happy to report is causing Mary get distress over her mismanagement of donation funds.
Maybe another time Michael.
If that’s what you believe Michael, then you must believe many people in the world are coping with metaphysical infections that just happen to resolve when given certain medications. Whatever.
This morning Michael, it’s you that needs to take the chill pill.
ah
Aherah, this is not a philosophical problem, you started the discussion of metaphysics and I was just indulging you since I like linguistic arguments, my mistake. It’s a practical problem, and that is how I approach it.
What is the evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions?
What is the evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions? “Where is the evidence that it is NOT? Ok then why are you, Michael and every research lab in the world not disproving Morgellons with true “research” data?
So is chicken pox’s just body acne? No because there is research data that proves other wise and it also makes your skin itchy.
So why not let us fight to get more research data on morgellons. Hey here in the USA we waste tax dollars on other stupid BS. Then when the data come out - if your correct in “your” ideas you can say “told ya so” - but until then can some of us waste a few tax dollars on something WE DO BELIEVE IN?
Let me put my question another way TexasRose:
Why do you think there is a new disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions?
If you approach Morgellons as a practical problem to be viewed through the terms of Occam’s razor, then your approach is open for criticism. I believe I was trying to explain that Occam’s razor might not be suitable for this issue. I’ve said before that I believe it is very complex; it may require a complex theory. The funny thing though is most of us have sought the most logical, simple answers to this illness in the privacy of our own homes. Once we have realized that the most simple, logical answers weren’t accounting for all that was going on (i.e. my son wasn’t around the fiberglass), then we know that solving this riddle may require more complex thought in areas we are not all familiar with (human biology, microbiology, chemistry, etc). The next step for us is to go to the doctor, but no riddle solving is going on there–that’s for sure. We’re stuck knowing that Occam’s approach doesn’t explain it, yet people like you think we’re too stupid to have considered these simple, more logical theories. Been there, done that, but I still do consider these simpler theories. I’d love to believe that this is just an issue of exposure to fiberglass. Maybe it is, but we have no *evidence* of that either.
I have no evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions.
I’ll say it again because I know it makes you feel good:
I have no evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions.
I don’t even know if it is a distinct disease, or one that has been documented, just not well known in this country. I don’t know what is causing the fibers, itching, and lesions (for other people); I only know that swelling, rashes, and fibers are a part of the problem with me and mine. Call it whatever you want, it sure sounds like what others have termed “Morgellons.”
I don’t even know that it is infectious, or that people are becoming exposed to something (i.e. fiberglass) simultaneously without knowing it. Nonetheless, it sure seems odd that such a high percentage of sufferers come back with a positive Lyme test. That certainly throws a wrench in the fiberglass theory, unless fiberglass can give you Lyme.
ah
One of the most intelligent medical minds I have ever met came down with morgellons and she is not insane either.
This explains more on how I think - he is a better writer then I:
http://morgellonsgroup.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1151375595
It’s easy to observe that “victims” aren’t “wired for”, “or able to gear down to”, basic, sound, reasons of simplicity. I think that has everything to do with why they are forever going to be puzzled by something which isn’t puzzling, and why it’s guaranteed to continue for them, indefinitely. Dr. Wymore’s ignoring the vast majority of common, environmental fibers that he finds on “victims”, to me, speaks volumes.
“Why do you think there is a new disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions?”
Because my medical providers have been so totally clueless about what is going on with me and my kids, I know that it is not in their medical books. While there is always the possibility that a disease here or there doesn’t make it into their books, they seem to think this cannot be the case. Because they believe that their books cover every known disease, and my symptoms don’t fit into any known disease in their books, it leads me to believe that I might have something new that has not made it into their books yet. It’s called the process of deduction:
1. My doctor has a book(s) that covers all known illness and diseases.
2. I present symptoms to my doctor that is not in his book.
3. I have a new disease.
Somehow that got posted too soon:
(3) I have a documented but little-known disease that has not made it into their books.
ah
Under: “White Fibers Fluoresce Blue…”
http://www.rense.com/general72/crug.htm
Lymebusters’ past discussion on it: http://tinyurl.com/nbdq8
Oh, well. It was under a topic thread entitled, “Ice Bugs” about how what they had was so similar to meth users, even though they weren’t users.
Aherah, I think you misunderstood my original post. I also believe “it” is very complex. I just believe that different people have different things involved in their situation that makes them think they have Morgellons, and there is no evidence of a common factor that would suggest a new disease or other common causative agent. I also believe that individual cases (like yours) can also have a very complex set of unique factors involved.
I think you also misunderstand Occam. Occam did not say “the simplest explanation is the best”. he said you should not add unnecessary entities to the explanation. I think the real explanation for these 5000 people is very very complex, but probably does not involve a new pathogen.
The oft touted Lyme connection is not based on any real statistics. It’s hardly surprising that a bunch of people Ginger Savely knows will eventually test positive for Lyme. People who want a Lyme diagnosis just keep testing until they get a positive result.
I’d love it, if we could get someone who is experiencing a lot of various “entities” (only they know what I’m referring to), aside from fibers, to share what they’re witnessing, with us. The word, “entity” has a totally different twist on it for those such people. They don’t respond well to answering anything, though.
Aherah, itching and lesions are symptoms that are in the book.
Fibers are not, but delusional disorder is. You show up and tell the doctor that huge clumps of fibers are emerging from your skin, yet you cannot demonstrate this to him. Based on that evidence he’s probably going to conclude you are delusional.
Delusional people do not think they are delusion. In fact, they very specifically know they are not delusional.
That’s the problem. How do you suggest the doctor deals with the problem? Your symptoms (claims of weird fibers with no evidence), are much more indicative of delusion than of something new to science. What should be done, in your case, to show that you are not delusional?
When you continue to ask questions that have been answered time and time again, it makes me think that you find what is said too much to believe, even when it concerns a simple visit to the doctor. When I had it bad, a year and a half ago, I could have produced fibers upon demand. He absolutely did not want me to demonstrate anything for him. He did not want to see or analyze the fibers I brought. His mind was made-up, and he did not want to be presented with proof to dispute what he believed. My mother, my brother, my friend, my husband are all not delusional. Let’s not forget the doctors who look see fibers under the skin. Are they delusional? Where’s the *evidence* to support Ekbom’s theories to begin with? Why is his theory more palpable than the MRF’s theory of a new infectious disease? Because it is old and has been used for many decades? Yes, that’s why.
ah
So when you could produce fibers on demand, the doctor refused to watch you do it. That is unfortunate, since it just leave you in a “no evidence, except for my recollections” state.
“Ekbom’s theories” are not really theories, they are observations. He observed that some people thought they had parasites in their skin, they claimed they could see them, but their doctors could not. That is the evidence. The suggestion that cases like this are attributable to a mental disorder has been reasonably demonstrated to be accurate, since 80% of patients recover when treated with psychotropic medication. Delusions of parasitosis is not just some old theory, it has been extensivly studied and researched for over a hundred years.
It’s also not the only thing going here. As I keep saying, the reality is more complex.
Aherah, if you don’t mind, I have a couple of questions. You might’ve answered them before, so sorry if that’s the case–there’s a lot of material on this blog to keep track of:
1) What have your relatives and/or friends said about the fibers you produce? And have they witnessed first hand your “production” of these fibers or have they just seen the fibers *after* you’ve produced them? I don’t mean to challenge what you’ve said, only to get clarification since I’ve never seen anything like what you describe before and am having trouble picturing it.
2) This for sure might’ve been covered, but again, I can’t remember: Have you *ever* been diagnosed with DOP (or another mental disorder) by any doctor, and if so, what treatment did he/she prescribe? Also, did you follow the treatment? If so, what were the results?
3) Have you ever been diagosed with any skin or other disorder based on your symptoms of “morgellons?” If so, what treatment was prescribed and did you follow it? Also, what were the results (if you did follow it)?
Tbanks in advance!
One more question, Aherah:
4) What is/are your most pronounced (or maybe obvious is a better word) morgellons symptom(s)? How are they typical of morgellons symptoms in general? How are they not typical? (for example, you say you don’t have lesions, but it seems like lesions are a “key” part of this disease).
I know it sounds as though I’m using you as a guinea pig or that this is a quiz or something. I’m asking you because you are a morgellons sufferer who posts here a lot so I have some familiarity with you. The morgellons “case definition” seems to encompass so many things that it gets confusing for someone who doesn’t have it and has never experienced it first hand.
Also, you’ve said before in reference to my posts that you are good at “reading between the lines.” I’m hoping that you take my questions at face value because that’s the way they’re intended.
One last thing since I’ve asked you so many questions. You might wonder what my interest in morgellons disease is and it’s a fair question. I’m afraid the answer is pretty simple and uninteresting. My husband introduced me to the subject after he read an article about it on the internet. After doing some research I found this blog and also lymebusters, which unfortunately “locked me out” very soon after I registered, even though I’d never posted anything. I have already explained I am a non-believer simply because I’ve never seen anything that convinces me otherwise (which is why I ask so many questions), however the “story” of morgellons is compelling to me. I am also very interested in the mental health aspect of morgellons, which I believe I’ve also said before. Perhaps it is my own history of depression that draws me in that direction. At any rate, that’s my story.
MHKS
1) My mother watched in dumbfounded amazement as I scratched blue-fuzz from my clean and shaven legs, and then wiped the fuzz off onto a paper towel. She immediately apologized for having ever doubted me. My friend stopped by one day when my son wouldn’t wear a shirt mid-winter because he said “there are bugs” in it. She asked why he had a rash. I showed her on myself by applying lotion to my forearm (no rubbing) and fibers emerged. She saw them emerge just as I do. My husband has seen it numerous of times on the kids, and me although he doesn’t not want to be informed of it. He doesn’t like to be reminded of scary situations which he has no control over. My brother has recently seen me rub cream on the dry patchy area of my son’s cheek and watched as I rubbed some blue fibers out. Prior to putting on the cream, he observed my son’s clean face and my clean hands.
2) In 1992, I was diagnosed with scabies, which was incorrect because repeated treatments did not improve the situation. Then I was diagnosed with an unknown, possibly work-related allergy. I quit. Symptoms subsided for many years (but never completely went away), and then resurfaced in 2004 with me and my two youngest kids (who also happened to shower with me since I couldn’t let them run around the house and get into trouble). I “discovered” Morgellons at the same time my son was having itchy, fibery rashes and stomach problems. I went to the doctor armed with my information, which led to an open-and-shut diagnosis of DOP. I’ve never been analyzed by anyone with the proper authority to make such a diagnosis because, according to this doctor, they would come to the same conclusion as he with the mere mention of fibers. Later, when the rash covered my torso, he diagnosed me with folliculitis and prescribed antibiotics. They did nothing for the rash which was progressing, so I had to go to urgent care because I was in incredible itchy pain (yes, pain). The doc at urgent care said that he did not know what I had, but it looked more like an allergic response. He could not believe that my doctor had