“Morgellons Disease” is the name chosen by Mary Leitao in 2002 to represent what she thought was wrong with her son – a disease that supposedly caused eczema-like symptoms on his face, and some fibers she found in the lesions on his skin. Leitao started a web site, other people who though they had a similar disease joined her and began a campaign to publicize the “disease”. Eventually the media picked up the story, public interest grew, more people self diagnosed, people wrote to their congressmen, the CDC started an investigation, more media coverage followed, and more people self diagnose.
“Occam’s Razor” is a maxim attributed to the 14th century friar William of Occam, and goes:
“entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.”
This is often misunderstood as either “the simplest explanation is the best”, or “the shortest theory is correct”. Take the question “why is there fighting in the Middle East”, the simplest explanation is “God’s will”, but the reality is more complex.
What Occam is saying is that you should not add unnecessary entities to an explanation. However it says nothing about adding necessary entities, nor about how many of them there should be. In many cases the best explanation using Occam’s Razor is neither short, nor simple.
You also need to ask a good question to get a good answer. “What is Morgellons” is not a good question, since it presupposes that Morgellons is something. “What causes Morgellons” is worse, since it assumes the first question is answered. The question that should be asked is:
“What is wrong with all those people who say they have Morgellons?”.
Again, we could go for a simple explanation like “they were cursed by the devil”, but that’s introducing an unnecessary entity (the devil) so fails the test of Occam’s Razor. What about “they have a new disease that causes lesions and fibers”. That too introduces a new entity, a “new disease”. The question Occam would ask here is “is a new disease necessary to explain what is wrong with all the people who say they have Morgellons?”.
In other words: can we explain what is happening to the Morgellons believers without introducing a new entity, without the “new disease”.
One thing is for sure, the explanation is not simple. The wide variety of symptoms make it extremely unlikely that a single pathogen is responsible for all the cases. In fact, only the most ardent supporters of Morgellons will suggest that everyone has the same thing. Even supporter such as Dr. Wymore will concur that a large percentage of the people who post on places such as Lymebusters have some form of delusional disorder, and that the majority of the fibers are simply lint.
But I think I can phrase the answer to “what is wrong with them” in a reasonably short manner:
“They all have different health problems with a superficial symptomatic resemblence, and they mistakenly believe they have the same disease”
That’s a simple explanation. It fits the facts very well. It does not introduce any new entities. Clearly there are lots of different health problems going on. The only commonality is fibers, and that is explained in a very simple manner by them being environmental. What we have introduced here is “lots of different health problems”, but that’s not a “new entity”, since it’s already a given that they have lots of different health problems.
I’ve gone over what those health problems might be in several previous posts. This all simply explains what is going on, in a way Occam would like. But there are a few niggling problems, like red and blue fibers that do not melt at 1400F, that were extracted from under unbroken skin.
Again we are asked to believe one particular answer: “they were produced by a novel organism of a type new to science that creates fibers that can withstand temperatures that would destroy any organic material, and in several colors”, which introduces this rather complex new entity.
In this case we can produce a shorter answer for these particular fireproof fibers: “the fibers came from ouside the body, and slipped under the skin”. There are fibers outside the body, and fibers can slip under the skin, like fiberglass fibers, which melt at 2000F.
The Morgellons phenomenon is a good example of a case of Occam’s razor where the more accurate explanation is more complex than the explanation that introduces new entities. The short answer is “a new disease”, the more accurate answer is “many diseases, known and possibly unknown, combined with many environmental factors”. There’s a lot of entities in that explanation, especially when you look at individual cases, but there are no NEW entities being introduced. Just as the real explanation for the strife in the middle east is vastly more complex than “God’s will”, the real explanation for all the thousands of claims of Morgellons Disease if vastly more complex than “New Disease”.
The real answer is comprised of thousands of different stories, mini-explanations to mini-questions, sub questions to “what is going on with these people”. Like: “why would someone have fireproof blue fibers under their skin and also have neurotic excoriations”
I don’t know the right answer, but I’m going to posit a straightforward one called “Occam’s Hot Tub”.
Some time ago, the patient used a blue fiberglass hot tub. The fiberglass suffered from “fiber bloom” (prevalent in FL, CA and TX, thanks to the weather), which creates loose splinter of fiberglass. The pressure of sitting on and against the tub caused large numbers of these splinters to become embedded in the patient’s skin. The water was also contaminated with Pseudomonas aeruginosa, a bactirium that causes “hot tub folliculitis“. This developed into an itchy rash with many lesions, accompanied by a general sickness. The embedded fibers contributed to the itching. The patient scratched, which made things worse, creating new lesions, and creating an itch-scratch-itch cycle, compounded by a mild OCD. The initial rash cleared up, but the itching continued because of the now neurotic scratching. Normal fibers were found in the lesions. The patient is convinced she has Morgellons. She goes to Dr. Wymore, who extracts some of the fiberglass fibers from under the unbroken skin on her back.
Sure, it’s a long explanation, and we don’t know if it fits the facts, since we don’t know the evidence for the actual case. But if the patient had indeed been in a hot tub sometime in the past, then that would explain the blue fiber a lot simpler than a new disease would. It does not introduce any new entities.
There is no evidence presented that a new entity is required to explain. There is no need for a new disease to explain the thousands of people who self-diagnosed with Morgellons.
you are so full of shit Michael… every disease known to man at this time was once new or considered new… new species are discovered all of the time… new syndromes are discovered all of the time…
new is part of change and changes aren’t permanant but change is you fucking clown…
so now we are gonna rely on philosophy to determine if morgellons and it’s victims are real?..
keep reaching buddy… eventually you will have to give up…
say hi to bozo for me… loser!
I think long before she met Dr. Wymore, she’d kept soaking in the hot tub too, thinking that it was going to help her. It seemed like that was making her worse every time she was in it. She even had an idea the water was contaminated, and had it checked. Her symptoms continued, so she went to her doctor with her suspicions.He blew her off, the dummy, just like the health department had, when they assured her there was nothing wrong with her water. Things continued to get worse….
much worse.
Okay, MAF, rather than thinking that hollering will make us believe in a new disease called “morgellons”, take time to tell us why you are convinced that you have it. No yelling and cursing, because that makes you seem irrational, and unable to communicate effectively.
Why do you think you have this?
a
b.
c.
d.
e.
f.
List your facts, and help us to believe.
Hi Michael – I took some fresh fibers today and put them on a oven (felt a right idiot!). Anyway my oven only goes to 250 celcius. I blasted them on this for 30 minutes. Nothing happened – they are still the same. Not hot enough I guess?
We have a new digital camera which also takes a short video. I will attempt to video what comes out of my skin. I plan to rub some oil on the skin, run my fingers through which usually will produce stuff. The skin rolls in a strange way, but by doing this with the oil will produce lots of blue fuzz and long hair like fibers.
If I do this would you be interested in having a look? I would prefer to email to you.
Thanks
There are also other common common sources of fiberglass contamination besides hottubs. Some common sources are wall and attic insulation, pipe insulation, airconditioner filters, and fiberglass boats. Of course, building remodeling is a comnmon source of these highly irritating materials.
Interesting note today. My girlfriend and I were sitting on the couch today and I was rubbing her feet. Sure enough she had a “lesion” on her foot from wearing no socks while running in her new shoes. Upon a closer examination I was able to find…..guess what…………..fibers. One black, one white. So I removed the fibers and looked at them, hmmm they matched the inside of her new running shoes to perfection. I also looked at a big cut I had from falling down wrestling my little brother, and it too had fibers in it. To shorten a long story, I have discovered in the past few weeks fibers all over various cuts on myself, my brother, and my girlfriend. Does this mean that I have “Morgellons” or does it mean that I now look for more fibers since becoming interested in this subject after seeing it on the Today Show two weeks ago. As someone with a degree in psychology I can just only say that is amazing what we can find when we look for it. I am sure I have and always have had fibers in my cuts and what not, but it was not till hearing of Morgellons I started to look for & notice them. Now if I am someone with undiagnosed skin problems and slightly OCD/anxiety prone and think that what the media tells me is the whole truth about morgellons than I may be realy scared right now.
Hey TC – I spoke with some people in NSW here in Aussie who have this. They believed it was caused by fibre. I am not sure on this one. They did a test by putting their bare arm in a bag of fibre glass. Straight away it clung to their skin (as you would kinda expect). Now after saying that – what they told me kinda confirmed my theory about the electrical charge in the body, making the body more like a magnet, therefore the body storing environmental contamination rather that the body eliminating, given the immune system wasn’t change.
I will give you my example. I had NAET done to correct my immune system which had changed. My doc said that the Rickettsi change the immune system. Well my folks then had NAET done, their immune systems had also changed, BUT they showed no exposure the Rickettsia.
I find that interesting – my doc is very keen on his theories of Rickettsia and treatment (I respect that, not knocking the man). He said earlier on in the peace that Rickettsia had changed MY immune system. His theory kinda blown given my folks. He has kept saying to me the past 12 months, I bet the Rickettsi are involved in ‘Morgellons’. I am not a rocket scientist (not yet anyway) but I would put $50 on rickettsi being there.
My reason for this: Rickettsi as we well know have been around forever. We know Julia Ceasar had it and died from it. He used to shave every single hair from his body, and then eventually he had all of them plucked out! In the end he was as mad as a hatter!
Earlier this year I learnt that more Rickettsi species had been found in Western Australia. One is know carried by the domestic cat!
My doc and another Brisbane based doc (also treats Rickettsi and has had Morgies patients)have had a massive increase in Rickettsi patienets in the past 12 months.
So to wrap up todays theory – rickettsi could be involved. I think Lyme also. I choose those two because Mosies can carry both. Blue fuzz in body ? cynobacteria, aspergillos ? Rickettsi do have flagella – but to explain the other fibers – I am not sure – they are too similar to a human hair in colour and size, but the longer clear hair like fibers I can’t explain, as well as the small black fibers that look like plastic!!
The crap (chemicals etc) that floats in our air, ozone depletion, global warming, genetically modified food, chemicals sprayed on our fruit and veg!!! blah blah blah has to be involved too.
I think the really hard question for the scientists and researchers is FINDING what CAUSED the human immune system to change.
My body really does feel like it is carrying all sorts of outdoor crap, which will probably take a long long time to break down in my skin. Stuff that should not be there. The soles of my feet are a very good example to use – I had some summer leather sandels – I rotted the soles with my sweat!! I have some slippers which have a purple coloured tag on the sole, if I wear these without socks the dye goes onto my skin. This is weird though because it really eats into the skin. The areas of skin the dye eats into is where I have most of the swelling, which has lots of grit and blue fuzz.
Whatever has changed my immune system has changed my skin – to the point where this organism moves the skin – making it tight, sticky, able to roll. You can grab the pockets of grit and infection in my tummy and breasts – it does feel really terrible. It was actually my mum that said “it is like a plant growing inside you”. It does feel that way – but plant material shouldn’t be in my body?
I have done all the right health choices my lifetime and then started the candida diet (after a positive candida test) and when the blue fuzz and grit just wouldn’t go. Unfortunately it got worse in me. I personally believe the antidepressants and antipsychotics I was put on contributed to this – one example they really slowed down my metabolism.
12 months ago I was given a prognosis – “a chance of a 70% recovery in 18 months to 2 years and to be able to return to the workforce. I say to myself 12 months to go and I WILL BE WELL!
We have a lot of unique diseases these days – especially a lot that seem to hide from the immune system (intracellular bacteria) and blood work – making it hard for folks like me to get some respect and treatment from the local doc on the corner, or anyone for that fact. The HIV epidemic, reemerging TB etc etc etc. It is just too overwhelming
I am upset that the docs in Aussie don’t follow a uniform protocol of treatment, everyone seems to be off on their own tangent. They name call other docs these days, which I never used to notice years ago. Our health department really needs to restructer the medical system. Making it uniform and everyone sticking to the same treatments, not to mention a change of attitude.
Morgellons – A mix of old diseases in a very polluted, twisted greedy world?
Am I upset with myself for finding the Morgellons Website whilst researching my own illness?
Hard question that one – my answer yes and no.
No – because I was turning up at different doctors saying I have all the symptoms of this (unknown) disease I found on the internet and I have been told it is infectious and out of hand in the USA. Help me please. Thinking back – I must have sounded completely neurotic and crazy.
No – I was put on VERY high antipsychotics – when I really didn’t need them. They have changed my brain chemisty, but hopefully time will heal that.
No – The ‘person’ who brought Morgellons to the forefront. As I said in my letter of resignation to the MRF I believe someone had insight and tried to speed up the process of something that nature never intended. Slave labour, I feel used.
Yes – having suffered this syndrome approx. 10 years, with lesion out breaks and then controlling them. Working full time, quality life etc. I coped. My symptoms in the past 4 years were the worst and most horrifying. They were very rapid, quick, noticeable to the point of taking over my life.
Yes – I think time is of the essence these days – hopefully the CDC can make some decisions on a few things, whether we have a new disease or not. The health department here told me they are aware of Morgellons, but can’t do anything until the CDC make some type of statement. I would be happy if the CDC just told Australia – YES people are sick and have fibers, we don’t know why. Please tell your doctors not to treat people like they are crazy!!
So to sum it up – I am 50/50 with finding Morgellons on the internet. Lymebusters completely did my head in – this I find extremely unfair as it is meant to be a support forum! I allowed Mary L into my life so to speak – by doing what she told me because I was very sick and vunerable.
Would things have been different for me if I hadn’t found the website?
Thinking about it today – my symptoms and suffering would have been the same, but I wouldn’t have had the worry about ‘Morgellons’ and all the other stress that goes with it, given the fact of living in Australia. My folks wanted to send my to the USA for a clinical trial and/or treatment 12 months back. That would have been a waste of money.
I can understand a large number of the Medical Community being angry at ML. She tried to change my way of thinking to the point that ALL doctors are “A” holes. She was always nice to me on the phone, and gave some good advice a lot of the time. I am not knocking the lady for the good things she did. I am so very hurt though to think her intentions were not out of pure kindness and love of fellow humans. She has no idea what pain and torture I have suffered with my illness. The recent allegations against ML do bring to light what she was all about.
Charles Holman and Cindy Casey, along with the rest of us who jumped ship from MRF , are still continuing our crusade etc, as the New Morgellons Order. They too have suffered at the hands of ML. We continue this crusade not to promote a research foundation, but to get the word out – this group of people have a lot of common symptoms (a lot which are NOT mentioned in the MRF case description), believe me symptoms NO ONE should have to suffer and PAIN no one should have to suffer is involved in this syndrome. We want people to be able to go to their doctors and be treated accordingly, if possible. Offer support,alternative treatment options, life style etc etc to those in need. Keep our fingers crossed that the CDC can act on this immediately – purely because things do need to change ASAP.
I would like to think that every university in Australia as well as USA are doing there BEST to research this syndrome.
What have I learnt in the past two weeks with all that has taken place with this syndrome and the MRF falling a part?
Good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell. Where is Hell I ask? I always thought it was the opposite to heaven (down below). I tend to think now that HELL can be right here on earth. I won’t try to explain that people, but after my last herx experience – I was very scared.
Anyway I have apologised to ‘God’ for not talking to him a lot of late, but that has changed now!! I think it is good for people to have faith in something, God, a higher power, whatever it be. Personal choice. All helps to clear the mind.
MAF, Occam’s razor is not philosophy. It’s a heuristic used in the scientific method.
Would like to share one of my other Theories – When the skin under my eyes was really bad with this infection it felt like broken glass. I used to say “Everyone is looking around for Saddams mass weapons of destruction – well I think I am carrying them”!!
So how do we find a cure for this mixed bag of diseases, and not to mention what does feel like a ‘poison’in my body, and not forgetting the fibers?!! I HAVE NO IDEA!!
Maybe this is the war that Saddam wanted us to have? Because if we keep going at the rate we have been, we will want to strangle each other!!!
Sarah, I think it’s a mistake to look for “a cure”. Each case needs to be considered individually, with individual treatments.
Very true Michael – I just wish I had found a doctor years ago that thought the same way! Rather than administer an antidepressant as a bandaid.
People who think they have morgellons each have their own illness, and in some cases a person has more than one ailment. But due to the fact that they all have fibers on their skin, in their lesions, if they have lesions, under previously broken skin, and even under skin that has never been broken, they mistakenly believe they all suffer from the same illness. Nothing could be farther from the truth. These people need to be diagnosed individually, because across the board, there are a wide variety of illnesses. Most of these people are also delusional because of the irrational ideas they have developed about these fibers and other symptoms. Some people are worse than others, but it’s easy to see that most of these people are, in fact, mentally ill. That doesn’t mean that they are any less human, or of a bad character, necessarily, but they need psychiatric care. Those are the facts, whether the patient is in denial or not.
Many such patients claim to be on various antidepressants. They have apparently chosen to ignore the repeated DOP diagnoses they’ve received in the past, and only discussed depression, openly, I suppose. As I say, I’ve never understood.
It seems too many people just don’t think it can happen to them. A human brain gets ill like any other organ. However, having said that, anyone who is well versed on the topic of delusional parasitosis knows that denial is a gigantic issue, and living proof that it is what it is. The patient always insists they know what’s going on, and the doctor is wrong.
Oh! Let me be clear I was not meaning you, Abac68!! Keep the faith, girlie.
Neither was I.
Sorry,I missed this.
Thanks, I thoroughly enjoyed that. I hope someday you’ll feel a whole lot better, MAFer, regaining your health and everything. Please avail yourself of reading my blog, by clicking on the name “Smileykins” just for fun, so you can call me some more fun names. Laughter is good for the soul, and I think my story will give you an absolute hoot.
I have read through many postings and comments on this site and thought this might be helpful. I work with senior citizens and many of them have open sores that contain fibers from hot tubs, from old cieling tiles and upholstery that deteriorates over time.
I once visited a homebound patient, a lady who was near death but insisted on living in her home until the end. Her arms, legs and back had open lesions with red and black fibers. I was deathly afraid to touch those things and always wore gloves with her. Later I found out that she spent much of her days in a back room in a red and black chair that was in horrendous condition.
My point is that there are always immunocompromised people who are susceptible to infection of any kind. Many seniors have lots of skin infections because their skin is unable to resist infection. Surfers in LA have infections of the inner ear, lips, nose and sinuses, anus and penis – all due to exposure to organisms from untreated sewage in the water. Homeless people often experience a sloughing of the skin which almost looks like advanced HIV disease, but it’s just a result of long-term environmental exposure and years of no hygiene.
I’ll be the first to admit I don’t know the answers to “Morgellons”, but it is striking to me that the vast, vast majority of sufferers are middle-aged liberal white women. My hypothesis is that lots of people have compromised immune systems and have severe skin problems and a “female hysteria” is bringing this all together as a new disease.
I am sympathetic to the suffering and I know how people suffer, but I think for a lot of people involved, it is something to obsess about, something to be excited about, etc. I want people to find relief from suffering and for the lesions to heal, but I also don’t want people to fear something that does not exist.
Jenniferth, I really appreciate your taking the time to post your observations and opinion on this blog. I am a retired medical entomologist and saw first hand many people suffering from common skin ailments to which they ascribed fantastic causes . You have seen first hand the common household fibers stuck in the lesions. Several weeks ago I forwarded the address of this site to many former collegues and suggested they follow the posts of Michael to receive rational, objective information about the so-called Morgellons fibers, etc. I know many are indeed following this blog and it is so very important that experienced rational people like you share such information. I think your post will reach many professionals dealing with this unfortunate situation and eventually help the sufferers waiting for their “mysterious fibers” to be deemed a new disease.
Please, readers, if you have supportive comments like Jenniferth, please post them.
Let me tell you these last posts really make my head spin, but in a good way. I feel I have turned the corner. Fear is a terrible part of suffering this syndrome, but you know the funny thing since I was banned from Lymebusters and once I got over the full moon and I came to Michael for some direction……..I really do feel a lot more FREE.
I must also mention that Sally (my cat) also appears to have lifted her spirits. She gets unhappy when I am down, but her and I have worked hard together to comfort each other, and it is so worth it. I have learned so much from my pets throughout my life.
Jenniferth,
Thank you so much for your contribution to this blog. I’m not a Morgellons believer but I used to be. I spent about 3 1/2 years looking for Mary Leitao’s illusive pathogen.
At first the fibers were described as hyphae-like. Then they were described as being made of cellulose. But then, that wasn’t enough. They had to be red, white, and blue. Then fluorescent. Now they must be fireproof. Whew!
Pretty soon, with all those characteristics, I had it narrowed down to a hoop-jumping bio-engineered pseudoplasmodium named dictyosteleum. Of course, before that it was a fluorescent actinomycete, and before that, even an ambrosian beetle, called xylosandrus crassiusculus.
It looked like the bug to me, that was pulled out of Drew’s lip. Of course, that wasn’t anything but blanket fuzz, and I was on heavy doses of crystal meth. It almost killed me, so I quit using 2 years ago. I was crazy on that stuff.
I’ve watched “this” thing do some pretty cool tricks and I know where fear can take you. I was fortunate to have ever made it back to the real world, any world.
I’m not a believer any more, and I feel that the belief can be quite harmful for those who ignore their doctor’s diagnoses.
Through the message boards of the believers, they learn to distrust their doctors, especially dermatologists, and they forgo needed medication for serious conditions, like diabetes mellitus, krohn’s syndrome, rickettsia (Not you Sarah), sarcoidosis, and others. Those groups are cults and they are quite dangerous, not only for the patient, but also their unfortunate children and pets.
Some also need psychiatric medications, at least something for anxiety and depression. I take meds for both of those. I don’t care who calls me crazy. I really don’t. I know who and what I am.
If I need meds, I want to take them, and I do need them. I believe that Mary Leitao let her bruised ego get the best of her, and she obviously thought she knew more than her doctors. Her education apparently went to her head.
Well, she created a big, harmful mess, and she has helped to twist so many people’s thoughts. Thanks again for your very sensible contribution.
Sarah Connor,
We were just talking about how much you seem to have changed for the better. You seem to have come to understand that we aren’t against you. We are for you and your healing. You had plenty of reasons to be angry, but you seem to be handling it very, very, well. Congradulations.
Tall Cotton
I’m glad I checked back this evening. Thank you for the feedback. I do want to empasize that I do get very upset knowing that people are suffering with intolerable symptoms. It’s a horror to suffer, lose sleep and have people avoid you – when you don’t know what is going on.
I have been fascinated by this phenomenon, and as a RN for many years, let me tell you, I’ve seen it all. Many things they don’t tell you about in school. I once lanced an abcess on a homeless mans face and thousands of little flies came out. Another time, I saw worm specimens taken from the colon of a sushi eater. When our immune system is weakened, Mother Nature allows all the other organisms to take advantage. It isn’t pretty but it’s real.
One thing to keep in mind is that we really are a “holistic” part of Earth. We are “on one level” just another part of Earth’s environment. When we die, even if we are buried in a sealed box, our body will decompose from the organisms that live on us and in us all the time. Remember that ordinary bacteria on the skin is foreign. E-Coli is foreign. Geez, even the mitochondria in the inner parts of the cell are considered foreign incorporations into human biology. We are very much part of Earth’s biology and we are interdependent with it. The “trick” is to stay healthy, don’t do chemicals and be as clear-headed as we can be. Even with being careful, it’s a miracle that humans make it to adulthood with all the things that can go wrong along the way.
If I have any general advice to share, it’s that our bodies naturally strive to be healthy and correct problems, but our attitudes and beliefs have a huge impact on this.
I wholeheartedly agree. The human immune system is a very remarkable thing. It is capable of healing almost all, if not all, diseases. Of course, in order to accomplish that, it needs to be kept in optimum condition. When the immunity is compromised, even the normal flora becomes pathogenic. Not only is the integrity of the skin breached, but also that of the subcutaneous tissues, and the vital organs. The chemicals in the body become natural pheremones, attracting every kind of microorganism and arthropod imaginable. And the body has little or no defense against them.
WOW!!! We certainly do have a great bunch of intelligent people on this blog. Thank you TC for your kind words – awful isn’t it that you had to become a “TallCotton” so to speak to understand the mess that a selfish, self centered woman created. I love your description of the disease – your research was incredible!!! But you and I and hopefully many others will understand that we have to learn from this research, find a better place, find a balance. We will never have all the answers about life as we know, other planets, the unknown whatever!
I listen to myself and nuture my inner child, I feel someone or something tried to steel my inner child. I am my own best doctor, but heck if the rickettsia infection starts to flare up a bit – well I will work on it. I think a strong mind can help me more though, man made medicine isn’t always the answer, it can help, but it won’t bring ya back home. The good lord didn’t give us a handbook on life and the working of the human body and mind, he did this for a reason. I believe a very good reason. He protects us from harm.
I would go insane if I continued to research my ‘bug’, with all my travel and living in different countries, where would one begin!! I would be better off trying to reinvent the wheel maybe, at least the wheel isn’t going to hurt me!!
Last year I saw a Naturopath before I received any Rickettsia treatment. This lady was really nice. She learnt my history, health issues etc. She told me she was amazed I was still alive – not due to bad life style, or the wrong food…. because I had had such a little life filled with a lot of stress. I do dig my heels in a lot and this is why I am still alive. I never forget what that lady told me, hence to say I don’t need to pay her very expensive bills to get better. I just took her advice and put into place what I can afford.
I do believe in Karma – and if someone has brought about wrong in this world – it will come back on them.
I can not explain Morgellons disease, my theory today – enough stress, being stepped on by people, not loving yourself and not being able to say NO – will set the foundations in motion.
When I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia, the Rheumatologist was a lovely man, I had worked in the same hospital as him. He explained Fibromyalgia to me in laymans terms, he said people who suffer from this sometimes have trouble saying ‘NO’, some have suffered abuse or sexual abuse in their past and need some counselling. I did take all his advice. I have learnt a lot from counselling. A counsellor will not ‘fix’ your problems, but will plant helpful seeds to set you on the right path.
I learnt as a kid ‘money makes the world go around’, coming from a small loving family, my folks being children in the war – they did it hard. Money does help us live our lives – but it won’t bring happiness or inner peace.
Education, power struggle, attention seeking, selfish, self consumed, greed, preying on the sick and vulnerable – Mary Leitao.
If you asked me 10 years ago if one person could create such a disaster I would have said no way – but she has – how she did it – I don’t know – and I don’t want to know at this point in my life. I believe in fate and the truth. I do not wish harm on this woman, I am not that sort of person – but I ask myself – why do I hurt so much? why have I hurt so much in my quest to find an answer? A human being with ailing health still has compassion in their heart, so naturally they want to help others, which I tried to do. Mixed messages, gossip and lies has never been my cuppa tea, but I believe it will always lead one into more problems.
Thank you, indeed, jenniferh. I basically made nothing but a whole lot of enemies on lymebusters’ message board, in the past, trying to stress some of the points you’ve made. In a very puzzling way to me (at the time), it only angered most of the people there. I gave better than my best shot, in saying that good nutrition and striving for optimal health wouldn’t provide a favorable dwelling for what they think infests them all. Many gave accounts of tearing themselves down all the time, in various ways, unaware of it, just trying to kill the morgie creatures. I’ve learned a whole lot since those days, from growing into a realization that it really wasn’t that easy a thing for most of them to follow, and definitely not so simply solved, as I had thought at first.
Sarach, my pets keep me going, also. I want you to continue improving and I’m praying for it. (Now, that doesn’t mean I’m slamming a Bible over your head or trying to perform an exorcism, hahaha.)
Smileykins – due to the itch in my scalp which comes and goes, I don’t think the bible on my head would help the itch!! I will continue to improve, don’t you worry about that one!!
Hi Sarah,
I’m really glad you’re feeling better. As an observer, it was frightening, how frantic you were during the MRF Meltdown. Even then, though, I thought being banned from LB could only be a very good thing for you.
When you feel like it (or never, if you don’t) you should read up a bit on how cults operate. Yes, cults are usually religious in nature, but the principles are the same for any closed community that wishes to control its members.
I did not hear the radio broadcast last week, but regardless of anything that was said on the show, you did neutralize one of the most powerful (and under-handed) weapons at ML’s disposal. You gave your real name. Now you never have to worry that someone will be dispatched to do to you what you were sent to do to TC.
Congratulations, that took guts.
Best wishes for your continued recovery.
For those of you who have symptoms, I wish you the best of luck. One thing we’ve done as nurse practitioners in the last few years (when we were stumped on what to do) was to email as many doctors as we could find when there was a set of symptoms that didn’t seem to make sense.
About half the doctors will respond or have someone send information on where to seek help. Don’t dismiss doctors in any field. Most of the medical people I’ve worked with love resolving mysteries. We want to kill the bugs and send people home feeling better. So, use email to ask doctors for help. Keep your inquiry short and concise and you’ll get help more often than not.
Just to give you an example, we had a lady in for primary pulmonary hypertension (PPH). Usually, this is from taking diet drugs or amphetamines, but the woman had no history. We emailed everyone we could and a doctor in Puerto Rico suggested a blood-borne organism. That turned out to be the cause. So, use the minds of as many doctors as you can. Sometimes it helps.
Thank you all for your support and kind words. My inner child still has a question, I can’t keep her down!!
Where does Wymore the Scientist and the collection of Research money come into this??
Send me an email if you don’t want to explain on the blog, but heck we have nothing to hide. Can you help me out please?
Thank you.
P.S. I had a quick peck a boo at “Cults” – WOW – what a mess. So glad I get to spend a lot of time on my own – it is very good for the soul.
Sarah,
When you walked away from the MRF and Lymebusters, did you feel like you walked out of a dark fog, or out from under a black cloud, so to speak. My guess is yes. By the same token, when Wymore attached himself to this so-called disease, he entered the same region of darkness. Anyone can go there, but few find their way out of the fog and make their return. I’ll surely catch flak for saying what I just said, but I’ve said it for those who can accept it. No one is immune to the darkness. I have said that I am, but I know that one has to always guard their thoughts. It’s a place of deception. Keep walking into the light and you can’t go wrong.
Tall Cotton
I think Wymore believes he’s doing the right thing. I think he likes the idea of discovering a new pathogen. I don’t know how the contributions at MRF fit in, but Wymore seems like an honest man. Just one who has been a bit hasty in participating in the MRF publicity extravaganza. I think when his research moves to the epidemiological stage (where it should have started), the true diversity of Morgellons will be revealed, and the significance of his isolated fiber tests will be put into perspective.
I never doubted Rr. Wymore’s honesty, but I think that the lust for fame can sometime blind an honest man. This would have been a real good opportunity for him, had the disease been real. I hope he knows when to let go of the merry-go-round. I still think Oklahoma ought to stick with football. I can say that since I was born there.
You are an amazing lady, Sarach. Haha, see now? Truth is not a place where shame can reside. TC and I haven’t anything to hide, and anyone’s twisting of the meanings of our accounts in our blog, having tried to use them as some kind of stupid weapons against us, has meant nothing. The state of mind the ones doing it are in, is the matter of geniune concern. We have done nothing to them, and they’ve aired what their problems are for all eyes to see. It hasn’t all been a lack of comprehension. Any dummy can see what it’s been. They’re protecting what they feel has been threatened. Creepy, huh?
I used to read the progress letters Dr. Wymore issued, and while morgie people were always thrilled upon seeing them, they did nothing for me but say a whole lot of nothing, reminding me of a politician speaking. Observing his speech patterns, voice inflections, and body language, I still have my original opinions. Any person with a scientific background that is involved in this defies logic, to me. If he didn’t familiarize himself with what “morgellons disease” is, before choosing to jump into it, pardon me, but I can’t be anything other than suspicious.
TC – Yes the fog has lifted, but because Tony (the person I live with) has been exposed to ALL of this and ML on the phone, it is a real fight, but a fight I will continue. He is an alcoholic. I am slowly trying to plant some good seeds to help him to help us. If I walk away from him I feel it is unfinished business, or is it just more curiousity?
I think what has helped my healing – has been the introduction of a circulation booster, works on accupressure points etc. It was invented by docs and electronic engineers. I am starting to sleep better, my skin is improving in an amazing way (it is what I feel happening on the inside). Now Tony went and bought this to make me feel better and said this will make you better. He has method in his madness, he wants to be rid of this too!! He just to be able to keep drinking as well.
I spoke with him today and tried to make him see sense by reminding him of divorce and lost love and the grieving process. I tried to encourage him that it is now time to move on from that. Find a balance, don’t let the drink control you. Everything in moderation. Because I do understand the pain we all have had to bare through this strangeness, I have compassion and don’t want to see him suffer, but I am aware he is not my total responsibility.
I too would like to think that Dr Wymore is a good man – BUT I still have my suspicion, I do hope that time will tell. Through the grapevine I was told he is well aware of ML and apparently figured out something was wrong or not quite right with her. Doc Smith said exactly the same thing. Chas same about ML and Drew. He said when they met at the UNI. with Doc Wymore Drew was out of control running around, ML didn’t give a damn. Apparently docs told Chas they believe she is quite typical of borderline personality disorder. I did have a quick look into this (read up), but Chas was right, scary shit. Chas is a lovely man to talk to. I believe his heart is in the right place, loves his wife. He wants to help raise funds for Dr Wymore because HE believes HE is doing the right thing, to help others not suffer anymore.
I have written to Dr Wymore, but still awaiting a reply, but he did to reply to an email about media???. I wanted to take him down the track of genetics and said I really feel I would be a good example since 4 generations are still on earth, but with my Grandma alive and well, and also very selfish, she kinda pulls on my strings at times. Can’t explain it much better than that. So if he is into Science I would really love him to read this blog to let him know that the answer is not really totally in the fibers (or is it?). Can you look at lots of things? Anyway you folks are older than I and maybe a bit more wiser with experience, so add some more and help me along please. Thank you.
Sarah,
I don’t know Tony, but I’ve known some alcoholics. Alcoholics can’t drink alcohol in moderation. Many, many, people have had to come to that sad conclusion, and accept it. Very, very, few succeed in quitting, percentage wise. I’m not saying he will or won’t, and I don’t even know if he would consider it, but like they say, first the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. The hardest thing for an alcoholic to have is rigorous honesty. They try to rationalize their every behavior. And they are always “building up to drink”. I don’t know what you think of this man, but if you have the strength to let him go, he knows as well as I do, that that is your best chance for happiness. I’m just speaking averages. I wouldn’t wish an alcoholic life on any spouse, male or female. You’re in a lobster cage. There’s no door on top. Its open, and your free to come and go, except for the other lobster. The other lobster will pull you back in if you try to excape the alcohol. You have to be very wise, and put yourself and your emotional health first. If you don’t, no one else will. No one can force you to believe their twisted words if you take hold of the truth and stand your ground.
P.S. Charles Holman is very mentally disturbed. His wife’s lesions are neurotic excoriations. His thinking is totally Morgie, and very irrational.
Tall Cotton
I feel Chaz is a bright man, and I enjoyed him when I was on lymebusters message board. I also empathize with the situation he found himself in, and I don’t know that he had any other real choice than to fall into this the way he has, thinking it’s the right thing to do. At first, I had thought Cindy could have acquired an infection on her job, but finding out that he hadn’t contracted, I knew that wasn’t the case. It wasn’t until viewed her pictures last month, that it knocked me flat out into the floor!!!
Hi guys,
Sara, Hi there, how is it you are doing so much better, so quickly? Just last week you were in pain(physical) and the week before that in a stated you described as confusion?
I’m not doubting you a bit, just wanted your opinion of the rapid progression in your health improvements. Also, Sara, as you well know I have been saying for 3 months now that I felt this disorder was related to a ricksettsial one.
I am wondering what type of test your doctor did to prove this. (again, not doubting you, just wanting to know for myself….)
What type species was involved? I recall you saying you fell ill during a trip to Austin Texas 8 years ago right?
Did you get hoswpitalized and tested while you were in the US or did you wait until you were back in Australia? I am wanting to know this question simply for the latency of the disease. And Sara, last question, Which did your Doctor call it: Cat-scratch Fever or Cat-scratch disease?
To Michael, Smiley and TC,
I’m very glad you guys are being nice to Sara. You guys really might have a heart afterall, huh? Hey, with the above being said I’m confused about one thing….that is:
You guys praise Sara for dropping her affiliations w/ MRF and LB but in the very same post (referring to one up above by Sara where she says she no longer associates w/those organizations, she blatently says she has joined another one. That is what I don’t get….I mean what is the difference of this new one compared to the old one and LB if people are still saying Morgellons Disease> please note that I am in no way trying to be difficult, but my Lord, I just want to know why one is okay and the other is delusional parasitosis (this last sentence did not come out right, but you can gather what I am talking about.,)
Thanks a lot.
PS: Sara and all: Last week on that radio show, Greg also announced he had been diagnosed as having cat-scratch disease….did anyone else hear that too?
Thanks,
London
The crap (chemicals etc) that floats in our air, ozone depletion, global warming, genetically modified food, chemicals sprayed on our fruit and veg!!! blah blah blah has to be involved too
(*cute Sara, Gillian……Hey, How’s Judy?) HAHA
Sara, your name almost reminds me (you know, the sound and similarieties of…..you go by Gillian and the word I have been studtying is blue-green, just like the fake-ass cyanobacteria….you know, the one…..GALLIUM!!!!!
Michael,
Hey, remember about a week ago (if even that long) I was talking about computera aND FIBERS, ETC., WELL, you came back and said it was nothing to do with Biology…..and to learn more before I post, etc, ….
Anyway, I ran across this very recent article and it is very scientific related….to be specific, it talks of Ligand -binding, carbohydrates & glycobiology….
Here you go,
Cheers,
London
http://carb.ibch.ru/pdf/cv268.pdf
London, yes that article is very “scientific”, but what does it have to do with Morgellons beyond containing a few key words.
Can you describe in less than 100 non-scientific words, what the paper is about? If not, then don’t post it. Read it first.
In a more sensible post, London said:
I don’t think there is currently any appreciable difference in the science between the MRF and the unfortunately named New Morgellons Order. They both think there is enough evidence to call Morgellons a new disease that produces fibers and lesions, something that I feel strongly is not the case. I don’t know if one is “better” than the other, as neither has done much since the split. I feel Sarah/abac68 would better off taking some time off from the Morgellons community for a while, and focussing on her own health and happiness.
Hello again,
I was discussing these skin lesions at work today and had a thought. It could be with some patients that fibers entered the body in some manner and are simply working themselves out through the skin.
We had a patient last year who came in with little red bumps all over the bottom of his foot. As we looked closely at the bumps, there were slight glints of light from something shiny. Long story short, we pulled out dozens of glass splinters.
Suddenly our patient had a memory flash. Three months before, he had stepped on a patch of broken glass with no shoe on. He cleaned the foot and stayed off it for almost a month. His foot healed and there were callouses. However, his skin wasn’t finished healing and when he started walking on it regularly, his skin started pushing the glass bits out again.
What I’m wondering is if some type of building material or insulation was accidently ingested by people who have fibers. Unless a fungus or a nemotode is involved, skin lesions heal fairly quickly. Of course there are exceptions. I’ve seen tiny staph infections that have taken over a year to fully resolve.
Anyway, I’m still very interested in reading on this topic if anyone has suggestions. Thanks.
I’ve heard of things like that several times, JeezeLouise mentioned she had the same thing happen with a car crash. But I’ve hardly been able to find any other mentions on the internet. Can anyone suggest a good resource for examples and the mechanics of how this can work.
Hey Hugh,
I think i HAVE GUESSED YOUR PROJECT THAT YOU THREW THE HINTS OUT TO ME TWO WEEKS AGO ON…..
IS THIS IT? ALSO, BIG NEWS IN THE LAPTOP FIELD TODAY, IS IT NOT EVERY ONE????
mARGELLONS, WHAT THIS HAS TO DO WITH IT IS EVERYTHINGL
tHE FIBERS IN US ARE FIBER OPTICS…..
THE FAKE-ARSE CYANOBACTERA…..ALL IT IS IS THE gILLIUM!!!
AND COULD’NT FORGET ABOUT THE WHITE LIGHTS YOU KNOW….
HUGH, HERE YOU GO, IS THIS IT?
http://www.brukeroptics.de/downloads/opticsnews_vol4_1-2003.pdf
YEAH , WE GOT A WASTE MANAGEMENT PROBLEM HAPPENING….
AND DAMMIT, ITY IS CALLED ELECTRONIC WASTE!
Not being blind to the circumstances is what’s it’s all about, London. (What you’d addressed to us, earlier)
Anyway, under the topic “MRF Accounting Problems”, in comment # 71, when I’d said to SarachConnor/Abac68:
I’d been thinking along the lines of her distancing herself from anybody (not “just” Mary Leitao) who’s associated with the belief of something called, “morgellons disease”. I had assumed that Sarach was at a turning point, and ready to put all of it behind her. Both organizations are just as dangerous to a vulnerable population, in my opinion.
Thanks Smiley! You were right, I missed your post entirely to her. Thanks again…..
oh Hugh R Delusional, alert here:
http://www.newstarget.com/fuel_cells.html
This is for HUGHT too, I honestly meant to hyperlink it in the last post…I do so apologize for having to post again, I do.
But Hugh, I bet this was what you were hinting around to me, yeah right?
London
http://newsroom.spie.org/x3841.xml
Michael, look here:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2004-01/1075607078.Gb.r.html
That’s posted by an MD (but clearly a poor typist), and includes some interesting comments:
“When I worked in a fiberglass plant making different things (summer job/college)I would get exposed to glasss dust, fragments and pigments. For about a year afterwards I would experience minor itching and then a piece would come out. Also coughed up and out pigments, etc.”
Michael, search on “foreign body reaction encapsulation” for info on how the body treats objects it cannot immediately expel.
I’m finding tons of pages, mostly dealing with ways to prevent rejection of implantable medical devices. Obviously, the mechanics of the physical response are the same.
Sorry, include “expulsion” in your search terms.
Interesting stuff, now I know the right search terms. Also try:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Subcutaneous+foreign+body+years
gets
http://www.ncemi.org/cse/cse1108.htm
“If you are unable to locate the foreign body in 15-30 minutes, inform the patient that in the case of a small metal fleck, the wound will probably heal without any problem. It may migrate to the skin surface over a period of months or years, at which time it can be more easily removed.”
All in all, it makes the fiberglass theory seem quite reasonable.
Remember this is only one theoretical explanation for one particular case, and maybe only one fiber in that case. But it’s a simple explanation that would please William.
Thanks a lot Jeeves, I’m glad they are looking at least, that is all a lot of us want, just some friggin help. I cannot tell you the pain it causes some days. Yesterday I was back at work and it felt like the area behind my knees (on back of leg) were going to explode with pain…(I assume from standing so much my first day at work, dunno) but when I got home and looked at my the back of my legs in the mirror….my, I found that they had nearly exploded….they were blue as in being bruised and these varicose veins (which I have never had one in my life ) were jetting out and down my leg about two inches.
This sucks rocks….
anyway, dunno if the Natiuonal Scienc Foundation is really trying to help or hurt us further….see:
Jackson State University (partnered with the University of California, Santa Barbara MRSEC): $2.75 million
This partnership will focus on the development and application of new materials–specifically, 1) organic semiconductors based on small molecules or conjugated polymers which have potential applications ranging from electronic circuitry to flexible displays, and from solar cells to biological and chemical sensors; and 2) optical nanosystems that use laser-induced fluorescence techniques to detect DNA damage, RNA interaction and modification of nucleic acids. The proposed research is of fundamental scientific interest as well as a crucial component in the development of state-of-the-art devices and sensors
London, scientists are doing research into all kinds of crazy stuff. If you look for some key words, you’ll find scientists doing research into something related to those key words.
But what has fiber optics got to do with YOUR CONDITION?
Fiber optics are long fibers of glass, along which light can travel, mainly used for telecommunications, but also in any applications where a light signal needs transmitting over a distance.
London, you are not understanding what you are reading. Please do not post things unless you can understand and explain them, at least to the level of showing how they might be relevent.
Yeah, Michael, finding the right search terms is the trick 😉
In fact, when most of the shards of glass had been removed after my accident, the ER doctor determined that digging around to get the rest would cause far more scarring than just stitching it all up and letting the stuff work out on its own, which it has been doing for many years since.
And yes, I do have encapsulation, such that when the shard is finally expelled, it does not look like glass at all.
Hi, London. If there’s a way to avoid standing for lenthy periods of time, try to. When you’re home, try to keep your legs elevated as much as you can.
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic2760.htm#target2
Our bodies produce foreign body granulomas, and of course, immune granulomas too, of which I have often wondered if people who pick and probe their skin are getting them out. I know of two “believers” with sarcoidosis.
•Almost any inert foreign body, such as pieces of glass, crystalline materials, talc, and pieces of soil can generate a foreign body granuloma.
http://pathweb.uchc.edu/eAtlas/Bone/1178.htm
Ya know Michael, I hadn’t decided what I think this thing is yet. You are hinting at yet another theory I consider: the fiberglass/immune response theory. Prior to my son’s itchy blue-back incident, I had been hiding Christmas presents in the attic, consequently stirring around a lot of fiberglass. Of course, this explains my expousure more than his since he wasn’t there when I was hiding the presents. I am well aware that others have reported symptoms similar to Morgellons after having been exposed to fiberglass as well; they knew that fiberglass was the real problem as is described here: http://www.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7904853&dopt=Abstract . My problem with this theory is that many construction people work with fiberglass all of the time. If Morgellons was an immune response to fiberglass, why aren’t more of them coming down with it?
ah
This may be of some small interest to a few.
Dr. Peter Lynch of the University of California also referred to it in this old “morgellons disease” article:
http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/05/08/70307.php
http://www.sustainableenterprises.com/fin/Health/getbetter.htm
(That night I’d heard the words, “morgellons disease” for the first time, I’d told of my fiberglasss incident upon my arrival at Lymebusters.)
SarachConnor comment: Where does Wymore the Scientist and the collection of Research money come into this??
Unless you donate straight to OSU there may not be a fast research into this – the MRF won’t send any of their donated research money to Dr. Wymore. There donations need to go to ‘media’ so they can get the word out there.
Michael comment: Just one who has been a bit hasty in participating in the MRF publicity extravaganza.
This was a way for Mary L. to “use” Dr. Wymore to get people to send “research” money which never made it to “research”. Dr. Wymore is trying to solve a mystery of what is Morgellons so that when people go the doctors they will help these people. Dr. Wymore is a sweet sweet person with a HUGE HEART. Everybody has posted that morgellons is from a wasp, fly, this and that – so why do the doctors not say this when people come into their office instead of say “oops your DOP”?
Tall Cotton comment: P.S. Charles Holman is very mentally disturbed. His wife’s lesions are neurotic excoriations. His thinking is totally Morgie, and very irrational.
When was the last time you talked ot Charles? As of yesterday when I talked to him he seemed NOT mentally disturbed. Come to think of it for the last 11 YEARS I haven’t seen him mentally disturbed, hmmmm. So please explain in detail from your personal EXPERENCE of a one on one face to face moment with Mr. Charles Holman that you feel he is Mentally disturbed?
Michael comment: I don’t think there is currently any appreciable difference in the science between the MRF and the unfortunately named New Morgellons Order.
# 1 difference – New Morgellons Order does not take donations THE ONLY LINK FOR DONATIONS IS THE OSU LINK!!!.
# 2 difference – Nurses Panel to help people with morgellons.
Plus New stuff to HELP people with SUPPORT, UNDERSTANDING, and truely CARING PEOPLE that is not out to get your money like the MRF.
So let just say 6 months or whenever that somebody in the world FINALLY comes back with “Morgellons is TRUELY this….” “here is the treatment….” then all can get THERE LIVES BACK – but until this day comes PEOPLE NEED SUPPORT and that is WHAT the New Morgellons Order is providing for people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Plus just a FYI – Michael has to be Bill Gates !!! LOLOLOL
Sorry if this link has already been posted:
http://www.carnicom.com/morgobs1.htm
very interesting
The links everyone put up were helpful. I did also read through the morgellons.org site, but it seemed to be narrowly focused on confirming a new disease. I’m wondering if “a boy named Drew” has a mom living her dreams through Munchausen’s by proxy. I hope that is not the case.
I have another old case to share. Our resident physician had a 50 year old man come in complaining that little black and gray lumps were coming out of his arm on his bicep all the way to his forearm. They were real and coming up through the skin. The mystery was solved when an old abrasion scar was found on the shoulder. Years before, the man had been in a serious motorcycle accident. His shoulder injury had healed but the asphalt fragments in the wound had migrated down his arm and were being expelled through the skin. This was about twenty years after the shoulder wound had healed.
I really feel our skin is our most dynamic organ. It can be a very good reflection of our emotional state or the health of the nervous system. I’ve seen psychiatric patients with neurotic excoriations have a complete recovery when they lose control and have to go on thorazine for a few weeks. When the mind has the “volume turned down” so to speak, the skin has a chance to recover.
Anyway, at the very least, I’ve gotten our staff doc to do some reading on this Morgellons phenomenon. I’ve kind of turned our office into a CSI meeting and we have had some interesting discussions. Hopefully more answers will come.
Munchausen’s by proxy was the original diagnosis. But does it apply in a situation where the mother thought she was correct (like with a delusional disorder), or is Munchausen’s only when something is being faked?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Munchausen%27s+by+proxy+leitao
JenniferH please read the following diary for your research:
If you would like to contact Cindy Casey or Charles Holman you can at the following website:
http://www.cherokeechas.com
TexasRose, regarding the link you posted, how do those fibers differ from these?
http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM107Lab/MicroscopePics/InsideAirPollution.htm
esecially this one:
http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM107Lab/MicroscopePics/liquidGlobs.jpg
To London,
I don’t remember the thread in which we were talking about it, but I had noticed that you had a question about my opinion on Sarah’s possible involvement with the cherokeechas group. I don’t think it’s a good idea, and to be honest, it really register that heavily. i was looking for improvement and I consider Sarah’s dissociation with MRF and Lymebusters to be a big step in the right direction, but I’ve read Chas’ diary, and I would not recommend his website to anyone. I think you made an excellent point.
Tall Cotton
The subcutaneous foreign body theory is very interesting, but don’t forget it’s just one of many needed theories to explain what is going on with all the Morgellons believers.
Fiberglass dermatitis might explain some cases, hot tub folliculitus others, meth bugs another, other diseases, delusions and environmental factors will explain other cases.
If you ever read “Maybe Morgellons is ….” then exercise caution, since Morgellons is NOT one thing. The evidence indicates that people who believe they have Morgellons all have different health problems with a superficial symptomatic resemblance, and they mistakenly believe they have the same disease.
Actually I would recommend Chas’s diary (and Cindy’s recent history) to anyone interest in getting a look at a segment of the progression of a Morgellons believer. Here is someone who scratches herself and admits to antibiotic seeking behaviour to the extent of stealing them at work. I have a lot of sympathy for Cindy, and I’m very sorry that she is ill, but I don’t think her belief in Morgellons is going to help her, or others.
http://cherokeechas.com/cindyc.htm
http://cherokeechas.com/Morg01.htm
I think that Wymore’s attempt to melt some fibers from a Morgellons believer is a step in the right direction. It’s been mentioned that the high melting point excludes the possibility of those fibers being organic material. This not only means that the fibers aren’t living human tissue, but it is also a real good indication that the fibers aren’t disease organisms. If the fibers can’t be organic, then they can’t be germs, worms, or bugs either. In some cases, however, these fibers may cause irritation and slow down the healing process of injured tissue. This would probably be the case if some of the fibers are fiberglass or asbestos.
I agree those fibers were probably something like fiberglass or asbestos – but remember this is just THREE FIBERS we are talking about (maybe just one, with the heat test). I suspect the vast majority of fibers that believers find are more common environmental fibers like cotton, hair, polyester, wool or paper. Wymore has said he just ignores those fibers when he finds them.
While Occam is not my first choice in philosophy, my brother, who happens to be a PhD in Forensic Anthro, and I talked about your reliance upon Occam in your arguments, Michael. He felt that you apply Occam in an unrealistic manner. Take this quote:
“But uncertainty and the non-existence of the ether can not be deduced from Occam’s Razor alone. It can separate two theories which make the same predictions but does not rule out other theories which might make a different prediction. Empirical evidence is also required and Occam himself argued for empiricism, not against it.
Ernst Mach advocated a version of Occam’s razor which he called the Principle of Economy, stating that “Scientists must use the simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude everything not perceived by the senses.” Taken to its logical conclusion this philosophy becomes positivism; the belief that there is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn’t exist at all. Mach influenced Einstein when he argued that space and time are not absolute but he also applied positivism to molecules. Mach and his followers claimed that molecules were metaphysical because they were too small to detect directly. This was despite the success the molecular theory had in explaining chemical reactions and thermodynamics. It is ironic that while applying the principle of economy to throw out the concept of the ether and an absolute rest frame, Einstein published almost simultaneously a paper on Brownian motion which confirmed the reality of molecules and thus dealt a blow against the use of positivism. The moral of this story is that Occam’s razor should not be wielded blindly. As Einstein put it in his Autobiographical notes
“This is an interesting example of the fact that even scholars of audacious spirit and fine instinct can be obstructed in the interpretation of facts by philosophical prejudices.'”
http://www.weburbia.com/physics/occam.html
As I said before, Occam is not one I know much about, but there does seem to be a belief that one can use his logic to arrive at illogical conclusions. Or, maybe, molecules are only metaphysical and Einstein’s accomplishments were just a delusion (?). This simplest answer isn’t necessarily the right one, but it sure is the easiest one.
ah
Aherah, much as I love a fancy philosohical discussion, Occam’s Razor is just a useful heuristic, a rule of thumb that helps you focus on what is essential (what entities are necessary) in a theory.
Since the definition of both “entities” and “necessary” are open to interpretation, you can obviously use this “logic” to arrive at “illogical conclusions”.
Occam’s razor should not be wielded blindly, and nor should any philosophical or linguistic construct. But Mach was right, molecules WERE a metaphysical construct, then, as now, molecules are an abstraction of reality, something that closely models what is going on, but does not actually represent it. Molecules are just collections of atoms, which are made from electron, neutrons, and protons, which are comprized of quarks, guage bosons and leptons, which are themselves supposedly just the four dimensional vibrational cross-sections of ten dimensional super-strings. The fact that they push smoke particles around does not make them real, it just confirmed the accuracy of the model.
Instead of attacking poor William, why not point out what is actually wrong with my argument.
Michael looked at your links – it states :
This is Melissa. She is using the air pump to pass room air through a cotton swab, which can trap particles in the air.
So those fiber are cotton on those links – so does that mean our skin has absorbed cotton fibers then once our skin gets done eating and is full it turns around and get them to crawl back out of the skin so everybody gets itchy so Doctors can say people are DOP? So if this is the case – why doesn’t doctors say “sorry your skins is full up, go home and scatch away so it can absorb more the rest of your life”
Today is really not a good day – but I would like someone to just say with “proof” what the heck it is. Yes we can blog, forum, and board away what WE THINK it is – but people are still itchy out there.
NOW WHAT???
It means that one person sent some fibers to some guy, who looked at them under a microscope, and they resembled cotton.
You can’t extrapolate this one incident to anything, it proves nothing, and suggests very little.
Cotton is the most common of all fibers (except maybe paper), and the most likely to get stuck in lesions. The simplest explanation is that the particular person who sent this in found some cotton fibers stuck in her lesions, and they got there from the environment.
I’m sorry you are ill, but you should not be looking for the cause of “this”, since “this” appears to be different for everyone. Focus on what is wrong with you. What does your doctor say about you?
Sorry Michael but can’t tell my story – I, like you have to stay a secret a bit longer – do to the fact that TexasRose is posting the injustice of the MRF, Mary, Cowles and the new board Chairman. Which I am happy to report is causing Mary get distress over her mismanagement of donation funds.
Maybe another time Michael.
If that’s what you believe Michael, then you must believe many people in the world are coping with metaphysical infections that just happen to resolve when given certain medications. Whatever.
This morning Michael, it’s you that needs to take the chill pill.
ah
Aherah, this is not a philosophical problem, you started the discussion of metaphysics and I was just indulging you since I like linguistic arguments, my mistake. It’s a practical problem, and that is how I approach it.
What is the evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions?
What is the evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions? “Where is the evidence that it is NOT? Ok then why are you, Michael and every research lab in the world not disproving Morgellons with true “research” data?
So is chicken pox’s just body acne? No because there is research data that proves other wise and it also makes your skin itchy.
So why not let us fight to get more research data on morgellons. Hey here in the USA we waste tax dollars on other stupid BS. Then when the data come out – if your correct in “your” ideas you can say “told ya so” – but until then can some of us waste a few tax dollars on something WE DO BELIEVE IN?
Let me put my question another way TexasRose:
Why do you think there is a new disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions?
If you approach Morgellons as a practical problem to be viewed through the terms of Occam’s razor, then your approach is open for criticism. I believe I was trying to explain that Occam’s razor might not be suitable for this issue. I’ve said before that I believe it is very complex; it may require a complex theory. The funny thing though is most of us have sought the most logical, simple answers to this illness in the privacy of our own homes. Once we have realized that the most simple, logical answers weren’t accounting for all that was going on (i.e. my son wasn’t around the fiberglass), then we know that solving this riddle may require more complex thought in areas we are not all familiar with (human biology, microbiology, chemistry, etc). The next step for us is to go to the doctor, but no riddle solving is going on there–that’s for sure. We’re stuck knowing that Occam’s approach doesn’t explain it, yet people like you think we’re too stupid to have considered these simple, more logical theories. Been there, done that, but I still do consider these simpler theories. I’d love to believe that this is just an issue of exposure to fiberglass. Maybe it is, but we have no *evidence* of that either.
I have no evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions.
I’ll say it again because I know it makes you feel good:
I have no evidence that suggests Morgellons is a distinct disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions.
I don’t even know if it is a distinct disease, or one that has been documented, just not well known in this country. I don’t know what is causing the fibers, itching, and lesions (for other people); I only know that swelling, rashes, and fibers are a part of the problem with me and mine. Call it whatever you want, it sure sounds like what others have termed “Morgellons.”
I don’t even know that it is infectious, or that people are becoming exposed to something (i.e. fiberglass) simultaneously without knowing it. Nonetheless, it sure seems odd that such a high percentage of sufferers come back with a positive Lyme test. That certainly throws a wrench in the fiberglass theory, unless fiberglass can give you Lyme.
ah
One of the most intelligent medical minds I have ever met came down with morgellons and she is not insane either.
This explains more on how I think – he is a better writer then I:
http://morgellonsgroup.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=articles&action=display&thread=1151375595
It’s easy to observe that “victims” aren’t “wired for”, “or able to gear down to”, basic, sound, reasons of simplicity. I think that has everything to do with why they are forever going to be puzzled by something which isn’t puzzling, and why it’s guaranteed to continue for them, indefinitely. Dr. Wymore’s ignoring the vast majority of common, environmental fibers that he finds on “victims”, to me, speaks volumes.
“Why do you think there is a new disease that creates fibers, itching and lesions?”
Because my medical providers have been so totally clueless about what is going on with me and my kids, I know that it is not in their medical books. While there is always the possibility that a disease here or there doesn’t make it into their books, they seem to think this cannot be the case. Because they believe that their books cover every known disease, and my symptoms don’t fit into any known disease in their books, it leads me to believe that I might have something new that has not made it into their books yet. It’s called the process of deduction:
1. My doctor has a book(s) that covers all known illness and diseases.
2. I present symptoms to my doctor that is not in his book.
3. I have a new disease.
Somehow that got posted too soon:
(3) I have a documented but little-known disease that has not made it into their books.
ah
Under: “White Fibers Fluoresce Blue…”
http://www.rense.com/general72/crug.htm
Lymebusters’ past discussion on it: http://tinyurl.com/nbdq8
Oh, well. It was under a topic thread entitled, “Ice Bugs” about how what they had was so similar to meth users, even though they weren’t users.
Aherah, I think you misunderstood my original post. I also believe “it” is very complex. I just believe that different people have different things involved in their situation that makes them think they have Morgellons, and there is no evidence of a common factor that would suggest a new disease or other common causative agent. I also believe that individual cases (like yours) can also have a very complex set of unique factors involved.
I think you also misunderstand Occam. Occam did not say “the simplest explanation is the best”. he said you should not add unnecessary entities to the explanation. I think the real explanation for these 5000 people is very very complex, but probably does not involve a new pathogen.
The oft touted Lyme connection is not based on any real statistics. It’s hardly surprising that a bunch of people Ginger Savely knows will eventually test positive for Lyme. People who want a Lyme diagnosis just keep testing until they get a positive result.
I’d love it, if we could get someone who is experiencing a lot of various “entities” (only they know what I’m referring to), aside from fibers, to share what they’re witnessing, with us. The word, “entity” has a totally different twist on it for those such people. They don’t respond well to answering anything, though.
Aherah, itching and lesions are symptoms that are in the book.
Fibers are not, but delusional disorder is. You show up and tell the doctor that huge clumps of fibers are emerging from your skin, yet you cannot demonstrate this to him. Based on that evidence he’s probably going to conclude you are delusional.
Delusional people do not think they are delusion. In fact, they very specifically know they are not delusional.
That’s the problem. How do you suggest the doctor deals with the problem? Your symptoms (claims of weird fibers with no evidence), are much more indicative of delusion than of something new to science. What should be done, in your case, to show that you are not delusional?
When you continue to ask questions that have been answered time and time again, it makes me think that you find what is said too much to believe, even when it concerns a simple visit to the doctor. When I had it bad, a year and a half ago, I could have produced fibers upon demand. He absolutely did not want me to demonstrate anything for him. He did not want to see or analyze the fibers I brought. His mind was made-up, and he did not want to be presented with proof to dispute what he believed. My mother, my brother, my friend, my husband are all not delusional. Let’s not forget the doctors who look see fibers under the skin. Are they delusional? Where’s the *evidence* to support Ekbom’s theories to begin with? Why is his theory more palpable than the MRF’s theory of a new infectious disease? Because it is old and has been used for many decades? Yes, that’s why.
ah
So when you could produce fibers on demand, the doctor refused to watch you do it. That is unfortunate, since it just leave you in a “no evidence, except for my recollections” state.
“Ekbom’s theories” are not really theories, they are observations. He observed that some people thought they had parasites in their skin, they claimed they could see them, but their doctors could not. That is the evidence. The suggestion that cases like this are attributable to a mental disorder has been reasonably demonstrated to be accurate, since 80% of patients recover when treated with psychotropic medication. Delusions of parasitosis is not just some old theory, it has been extensivly studied and researched for over a hundred years.
It’s also not the only thing going here. As I keep saying, the reality is more complex.
Aherah, if you don’t mind, I have a couple of questions. You might’ve answered them before, so sorry if that’s the case–there’s a lot of material on this blog to keep track of:
1) What have your relatives and/or friends said about the fibers you produce? And have they witnessed first hand your “production” of these fibers or have they just seen the fibers *after* you’ve produced them? I don’t mean to challenge what you’ve said, only to get clarification since I’ve never seen anything like what you describe before and am having trouble picturing it.
2) This for sure might’ve been covered, but again, I can’t remember: Have you *ever* been diagnosed with DOP (or another mental disorder) by any doctor, and if so, what treatment did he/she prescribe? Also, did you follow the treatment? If so, what were the results?
3) Have you ever been diagosed with any skin or other disorder based on your symptoms of “morgellons?” If so, what treatment was prescribed and did you follow it? Also, what were the results (if you did follow it)?
Tbanks in advance!
One more question, Aherah:
4) What is/are your most pronounced (or maybe obvious is a better word) morgellons symptom(s)? How are they typical of morgellons symptoms in general? How are they not typical? (for example, you say you don’t have lesions, but it seems like lesions are a “key” part of this disease).
I know it sounds as though I’m using you as a guinea pig or that this is a quiz or something. I’m asking you because you are a morgellons sufferer who posts here a lot so I have some familiarity with you. The morgellons “case definition” seems to encompass so many things that it gets confusing for someone who doesn’t have it and has never experienced it first hand.
Also, you’ve said before in reference to my posts that you are good at “reading between the lines.” I’m hoping that you take my questions at face value because that’s the way they’re intended.
One last thing since I’ve asked you so many questions. You might wonder what my interest in morgellons disease is and it’s a fair question. I’m afraid the answer is pretty simple and uninteresting. My husband introduced me to the subject after he read an article about it on the internet. After doing some research I found this blog and also lymebusters, which unfortunately “locked me out” very soon after I registered, even though I’d never posted anything. I have already explained I am a non-believer simply because I’ve never seen anything that convinces me otherwise (which is why I ask so many questions), however the “story” of morgellons is compelling to me. I am also very interested in the mental health aspect of morgellons, which I believe I’ve also said before. Perhaps it is my own history of depression that draws me in that direction. At any rate, that’s my story.
MHKS
1) My mother watched in dumbfounded amazement as I scratched blue-fuzz from my clean and shaven legs, and then wiped the fuzz off onto a paper towel. She immediately apologized for having ever doubted me. My friend stopped by one day when my son wouldn’t wear a shirt mid-winter because he said “there are bugs” in it. She asked why he had a rash. I showed her on myself by applying lotion to my forearm (no rubbing) and fibers emerged. She saw them emerge just as I do. My husband has seen it numerous of times on the kids, and me although he doesn’t not want to be informed of it. He doesn’t like to be reminded of scary situations which he has no control over. My brother has recently seen me rub cream on the dry patchy area of my son’s cheek and watched as I rubbed some blue fibers out. Prior to putting on the cream, he observed my son’s clean face and my clean hands.
2) In 1992, I was diagnosed with scabies, which was incorrect because repeated treatments did not improve the situation. Then I was diagnosed with an unknown, possibly work-related allergy. I quit. Symptoms subsided for many years (but never completely went away), and then resurfaced in 2004 with me and my two youngest kids (who also happened to shower with me since I couldn’t let them run around the house and get into trouble). I “discovered” Morgellons at the same time my son was having itchy, fibery rashes and stomach problems. I went to the doctor armed with my information, which led to an open-and-shut diagnosis of DOP. I’ve never been analyzed by anyone with the proper authority to make such a diagnosis because, according to this doctor, they would come to the same conclusion as he with the mere mention of fibers. Later, when the rash covered my torso, he diagnosed me with folliculitis and prescribed antibiotics. They did nothing for the rash which was progressing, so I had to go to urgent care because I was in incredible itchy pain (yes, pain). The doc at urgent care said that he did not know what I had, but it looked more like an allergic response. He could not believe that my doctor had diagnosed me with folliculitis to begin with. The urgent care doc put me on steroids which helped.
MHKS, I can’t believe that I am delusional if others can see what I see, nor I can I accept such a lazy effort for this diagnosis. I’m not going to take very potent drugs if my doctor hasn’t proven to me that all others who see the fibers and I are delusional. No, I don’t think all doctors are right because they’re doctors. I also don’t think all doctors are wrong. I do think that I am ultimately responsible for my own medical situations, so I have to be cautious about my doctor’s ignorance on this matter.
3) Explained above. I always followed the ones that worked. I don’t like to be in pain anymore than the next guy. I also have acne that comes and goes. I don’t take anything for that. I don’t have lesions. I typically have not gone to the doctor for any symtoms that I believe were related to Morgellons until my kids presented with symptoms. I have only recently started going to the doctor since I now feel I might have a doctor I can trust. Anyways, I’m tired of having to feel ashamed about being sick and scared of it. I have told her that if she felt it was in my best interest to take powerful antipyschotics, that I would. She has not suggested this route for treatment.
These days the kids and I are doing pretty well; let’s hope it lasts.
I going to bid you all adieu for awhile now.
ah
OK MHKS, you drew me in for one more time. In a few weeks, you won’t be hearing from me at all (got that TC and Smiles?). When I said something about “reading between the lines” I was referring to your comment that they’re not exactly “happy pills” … I understood, that’s all.
4) The swelling, rashes, and fibers just like Brandi Koch described it. “It’s the Fibers Stupid” as Michael pointed-out. Yes, it is. I don’t know that we all have the same thing, but we all seem to have fibers coming out of our bodies. I also have many other symptoms described by other Morgellons sufferers, but I only know for sure that it is the fibers that can’t be explained by a standard diagnosis.
I appreciate your honesty MHKS. If I hadn’t had this thing, I might have been a doubter polite doubter too.
must go…
ah
Aherah, thank you so much for answering my questions. I appreciate it! I’m glad you have a doctor now that you feel like you might be able to trust. Only time will tell.
Oh well. If I don’t want to collect a lot of fibers from the air in my skin, I just lay off the lotion. Sometimes those of us with skin senstivities have to lay off shaving for a little while, too, since it strips off some of the top epidermal layers. I have a few very painful conditions, and sometimes, running water at my kitchen sink over my arms helps with that pain. If I use the soap sitting on my kitchen sink to wash my hands with, and go over my arms that have had lotion applied to them, it cuts through that and guess what sometimes appears? Oooh, fibers. Soaps and lotions that are alkaline-based hold stuff inside our skin’s acid mantle, but that’s not very intriging. “If morgie people read labels on the lotions they’re applying, that helps them “produce their fibers” the word “acid” is in the list of ingredients. Thinking outside of the box is not always the right place to think, but it can go on forever, and sometimes, it’s just a lot of fun, too. Too often, it isn’t, though.
“In a few weeks, you won’t be hearing from me at all (got that TC and Smiles?).”
I wasn’t going to talk to you any more, but I just have to ask. Are they putting you away?
Now, TC. Her excellence is in the sport of twisting things, but turnabout isn’t fair play for us. That may have baited a question, but it doesn’t need to be asked. We need to steer clear of Linda, Aherah, The Artist Formerly Known As…, or, Pumpkin. She is doing her best to understand things.
Don’t forget Upsnapishdim.
Back on topic. I recently discovered that fiberglass fibers are a particular problem in spectroscopic analysis, since it’s glass, and the samples are normally mounted between glass plates, the results are indeterminate unless a non-glass mounting method is used. With might explain the rather flat graph they were showing.
Oh yeah. Gee, the link Michael provided up above,to the inside air pollution particles was just great. As someone with lifelong skin allergies, I think if someone were to be stricken with them later on in their lives, and unaware of the implications, maybe they would not realize the full scope of it. Compared to other people, life has to be lived a little differently. Haha. No, I’m serious. Lots of detective work is involved before peace is found, and it can take years. There are always risks and unsuspected triggers around and it’s not much fun to have them. Other people take a lot of things for granted, that can set a person with skin allergies into a real mess. Crawling, biting, stinging, burning, itching, swelling…it sucks, but some of us learn how to live manageable lives with it. Avoidance of triggers is key. I have seen countless morgie people discussing things that I know are skin allergies, but the particular items that they come into contact with, they say, are “making their morgie creatures angry”. That’s one way of looking at it, but it isn’t the right way.
Yeah, it looked like the locations of the major spikes were pretty close in that comparison. I wonder what substance that template wax for.
That isn’t supposed to say “wax”. It’s supposed to say “was”. I was referring to the spectroscopic analysis.
Michael, I would also like to mention that just being in close contact with someone who has been exposed to fiberglass is enough to transfer that fiberglass. So Aherah’s son did not have to go up to the attic, he just had to hug Mommy after she’d been there.
Here’s another factor to toss into the hot tub:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14378409/
Yep. There are morgies with MRSA infections, that I’ve read about on Lymebusters, that are completely clueless, too. People can pass them onto each other, as well as to their pets, and pets can pass them onto other pets, as well as onto humans. Just imagine what these people are doing, unaware of it, and just sure that they have something called, “morgellons disease”.
http://www.cdc.gov/Ncidod/EID/vol11no12/05-0241.htm
Smileykins and I have been doing some reading on MRSA, expecting it to perhaps become the Morgies worse nightmare. Of course, anyond can contract it, even through casual contact, but some of the Morgies have been on antibiotics for extended periods of time, and are, perhaps, giving Staphylococcus aureus a greater resistance to antibiotics. There’s no doubt about this bacterias ability to kill.
MRSA is a horror. I think more superbugs like this are on the way. It’s not ordinary people spreading it, it’s immunocompromised people.
In jails and county hospitals, people come in with all sorts of infections. Usually the homeless or the addicts only take the meds until they start to feel better. When they see a little improvement, they quit the meds and the bug comes back stronger and stronger. Its as though these patients are using their bodies to harvest stronger pathogens.
I think this is why a lot of patients are teachers and nurses. They are ones most closely associated with varied populations.
What does MaryL and her suppose “research” foundation know:
http://www.morgellons.org/updates.html
Her update states back in Sept. 2005 that “she” was working with the CDC. How long was she working with the CDC before doing her update? Very interesting.
That’s only interesting to the vulnerable members of society it’s meant to appeal to, but quite the opposite to those of us who are aware of the detriment this is having on them. It’s old news anyway, and now (finally), her mental status has been made well known to us all.
She was “dialoging” with them, not working with them. Meaning she was bugging them with emails and phone calls, and they were giving her standard responses.
Michael
After finding the above link – I ran across the following post – it is true or false I do not have the “true” facts or evidence to support this:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/finding1cure/message/4956
I don’t agree with this George Fuhrmann about “randy” if he is talking about Randy Wymore. This is what it states which I have also replied back what evidence does he have that can support this:
Post:
On Sun Aug 13 6:04 , ‘George O. Fuhrmann’ sent:
Ah,
it took me a while but suddenly I am realizing, that somebody is asking me to clarify something I have said, and I almost missed an opportunity to say the same thing again a little differently…
Seriously. After commenting on Randy’s letter to the CDC, – must read for everybody – and adding my thoughts I had to run but I am back and have this addition:
THIS IS WHAT I THINK ABOUT THIS MORGELLONS RESEARCH FOUNDATION. (And dr. Harvey in it.)
This Lady Mary Fumiento, – I refuse to look up her name – founded this foundation for probably all the right reasons. The CDC monitoring emerging dangers quickly identified that the name Morgellons was catching momentum, and this place could become a center for pushing to uncover the mystery. So they arranged some meetings, pulled Mary aside, and made a DEAL. And from there on the Foundation was simply a means of living (living well as some would observe) for Mary. According to the agreement, they were supposed to keep a high profile, so everybody with these fibers would eventually latch onto their site and stop organizing any further.
Now keep in mind that Randy himself stated that they have spent no money on research whatsoever, only on propaganda. But why? He never connected the dots. This is why! That is their mission! All this time they are not even looking at specimens what they have is in storage until such time they can get to it ????????? and all they do if one contacts them, that they send people to their local doctors, who would then classify these delusional, and as such are discredited, or send stuff to CDC where it would get “lost”.
So what the foundation does in agreement with CDC is, that they write all kind of fake public demands to CDC which is all well and fine by them. And also encourage people to write to CDC, and that is exactly what Randy has done, bidding their game plan. Except, as a noted is good to have such a letter on record. So, also, you may write to your congressman, and CDC would have an answer letter already written up for inquiring politicians, that yes we are vehemently working on it, just formed a committee and things of that nature. And even a well meaning Congressman will take that at face value, and so everything is kept under lid. The MRF is acting as a well visible prominent lightening rod, capturing all grass root demands for answers and neutralizing them, while playing this PR game with CDC for those who look but don’t see…
That is why I wrote that this cozy relationship is what we have to crack open by exposing it. The response so far – a have to admit – has not been overwhelming. Is it possible that I am the only one seeinguhm?
George
PS: Consequently: Whatever Harvey had done in his previous life is one thing, – and he may be right on Lyme – right now he is a corrupted person in this for the money. He was not among those three who have just resigned.
Sounds like paranoid rambling to me! I think people are overestimating the impact of “Morgellons” at the CDC. Occam would disapprove.
The group mentality serves to keep “morgellons believers” in a perpetual state. They’ve had no reason to slow down, stop, look, and listen, before proceeding. It’s a pity that so many people have such chaotic thoughts, that it renders them completely incapable of stripping it all away, and getting down to the most minute level of thinking. There’s a prevalence of this among the set of “morgellons believers”. Without knowing what they’re looking for, they’re in search of the unknown; the illusive, non-existent element to the cause of their combined sufferings. They only need to look to themselves for all the answers, each person, by themselves. The group mentality that has appealed to their senses, tripping them up inside a virtual vortex of incorrectness, is certain to keep them trapped deep within.
I keep going back and forth with the “believers”. It is striking where the cases are most prevalent. The California cities, Austin TX, Central and East Florida – they all have international traffic and also are correlated with bioengineered organism pest control (ex: the Locustae parasite).
The more research I do into parasitic infections – especially asian worms, nematodes, etc. the more I seem to itch. Yuck! There are a lot of nasty little bugs near the equator. If you read about skin worms native to Africa, it’s a wonder people make it to adulthood in central Africa.
If “morgellons” is an asian or amazonian nemotode, it will require a medication regimen that is painful and horrible to go through. Killing some of these rare bugs in humans is like killing heartworms in dogs, you have to put a fair amount of poisons into the patient to kill the parasites. With patients already compromised, it could be deadly. I’ve read case files where subjects with advanced HIV disease have had numerous worms in the skin and due to the patient’s condition, there was no medication available that wouldn’t kill the patient.
Still, throughout all I’ve seen, I just wouldn’t say that this is a distinct disease. For “Morgellons” sufferers, I would recommend calling or emailing around until you find a doctor who understands parasitic infection. I just cannot believe this is anything extraterrestrial, a government plan or something to do with chemtrails. If it is a bug, it’s a good old fashioned earth made bug; probably just very difficult to identify.
Jenniferh, “Morgellons is….”, presupposes there actually is something that there something unexplained, yet which can be describe. Specifically a whole bunch of people with the same symptoms.
They SAY they have the same sysmptoms, but there is no evidence that they do, in fact the evidence points strongly against it, since both the symptoms and the fibers differer wildly from person to person.
What I’m saying is that you are trying to explain something without determining if something needs to be explained. The first question should be: is there a group of people who have the same symptoms? What evidence do you have that they have the same symptoms.
Everyone with open sores under their clothing will get fibers in them, as you know.
Before you start speculating as to the cause, take a look at the speculation already carried out by the believers. This is only a small fraction of the theories:
http://morgellonswatch.wordpress.com/2006/05/17/morgellons-theories-are-varied/
I think this could be a tiny fly (midge) that carries a parasite (something like leishmania). The fly loves to live in hair, and the fly larva loves to live in our skin.
CO poisoning, mold, and the Lyme disease?
Took wormwood, used sulfur and had round spot- things “explode” out of my pores that hurt. Biting sensation can be pricly to very sharp. Are these hook worms?
I have leaned towards man-made govt. botches, bioterrorism, or…..get this…..one of the plagues of the end times
I believe that this is a bacterial infection primarily with a secondary parasitic element for the majority of patients
I believe this to be some type of fungus, bacteria or mycoplasma that resides in the dermis layer of skin. It is transparent and it attracts parasites that feed on it or its effects through skin pores.It could well be a new bio engineered strain of something that has escaped or been turned loose upon us
are military bases….something to ponder
I also had a Saltwater Aquarium w/ live rock & live sand. During water changes & moving the live rock, I cut my finger on sharp edge. I believe it is a strong possibility how I was infected.
contact with dying patient who supposedly had Norwegian scabies? Touched his rash- no gloves- immediate crawling
I believe this is an insect that morphs from one stage into another.
I got this from an ac system in a sick building.
I do believe that this blight was bio-engineered
possibly bug lives within body and crawls thru nasal cavity or tear ducts or when introduced to other insects
our government has a patent on Mycoplasma – this needs more research. Stealth Viruses are definitely involved. Government altered nematodes that were originally to be used to damage enemies crops.
I’ve research black pedra, which is a fungus of the hair/scalp. I believe it’s a fungus which can spread from hair falling out.
I also feel that the slow permeation of the environment with radioactive dust and the imbalance created by electromagnetic pollution has given ‘bad’ fungi and bacteria an edge over ‘good’, creating more food for these super bugs.
Maybe the sticky liquid is the fungal infection and the lesions are our skin’s attempt to fight this infection.
I believe the string/ lint/ hairs / etc. are both 1. Part of the cocoon structures produced to protect “their” young and 2. A way to transmit along blood to “their” young = via an umbilical-cord or veins….. I believe the sand-like granuals are nymphs / still in development….
Maybe this is a way to thin out the population
I use to think that I got this from doing crank way back then.
I am the only coffee drinker in the house. I used to drink tea but changed to coffee 6 years back. same time I noticed itching no other member off my family has symptoms
I think it is a parasite and not a fungus. This parasite can produce toxic substances such as threads and crystals.
This is part of the military and federal health care vaccination programs, people who receive the military vaccine and flu shots are heavy mostly asymptomatic carriers, avoid them for your life and especially EVERY vaccine even the new bird flu.
The fact that just entering the room people begin swatting at their eyes proves no doctor could claim this to be delusional because they are attacked by being within apex 3 ft of me.
One of my dogs has tested positive for Lyme disease
My torment is related to bird mites after removing a sparrow’s nest from my garage
I had Morgellons lesions on my legs when sewage backed up into my tub
No such type of parasite exists in medical circles. They bite and create wounds. They are blood seeking parasites
This Morgellons creature has been identified by someone as the same creature that was found within the Frass Meteorite. Perhaps from another planet
I think this problem is a result of genetic engineering of enzymes and/or altering insects so or their larva used to controls pests so as to improve crops
My house, when I got back from out of town, was covered with black fiber balls everywhere, in every room and that’s how I caught it. It couldn’t of been fungus, and I believe it could’ve been used by most likely our government, in order to test out a new biological weapon.
I do believe it is possible Morgellons are “new” or possibly manmade, accidentally or otherwise. I find it curious that many Morgellons message boards have been visited by shady characters and/or harassed out of existence.
It seems to me that the most prevalent factors are water damage and dampness
These things make themselves in their own image. They take food, & reproduce themselves in my mouth.
scabies are a possible way of infection as im sure i had scabies first, and then these took over
I am 99.99% sure that my infestation came from a houseplant that I had left outside and brought into my house after several days and watering. I believe numerous types of mites infested the plant.
I think there is something else to all of this, but what “it” is, I just don’t know.
The nanoflagellar machine. The idea of using bacterial nanocombinations in computers.
I believe something the biochemists made somehow mutated from what they thought it was and they are trying to correct it by putting things in the air, they didn’t know it was affecting people, and now, what they are doing is making us worse.
my theory is that we have been infected much longer, but some recent environmental change (environmental becuase of it’s diffuse nature among the population) may have brought on the acute parasitic effects or somehow made a dormant infestation become active.
Michael, because people don’t know what is causing their illness, and because they’ve been left on their own to speculate everything under the sun, does not mean that they aren’t all sick with the same thing. It’s silly for you to rely of the speculation of the afflicted to present as “proof” that they don’t all have the same thing. I’ve never described what I felt as “crawling” as others do, but after hearing others’ accounts of this sensation, I realize that we are probably talking about the same thing. No two people experience the same incident the same way. We all view the world through the lens of our experiences. When I say “bird” I envision an eagle; you might envision a parrot. In addition, he Morgies are limited by their lack of pertinent medical/scientific knowledge and inspired by their fear.
ah
That is a lot of different conditions, all distinct, all different.
I think that is the pulling power of “Morgellons”. It IS A MYSTERY, and not very well defined, so speculation goes out in all directions. I do see that impulse to pull everything into one place and explain it with one diagnosis.
My thinking is going in this direction; that out of let’s say 5000 sufferers in the US who claim Morgellons, maybe 1000 are not diagnosable with something else. Those are the “mystery disease” people. If the CDC reports on this eventually and says Morgellons isn’t a disease, an infection or infestation, then we will have to say it is delusional for the few that cannot be categorized. It doesn’t diminish their suffering, but it can reasonably be expected to rule out a new pathogen or parasite.
Still, from a medical standpoint, it is fascinating to research, especially since we are always exposed to new parasites and viruses. However, I’m still waiting for some kind of official recognition before I ever tell a patient to look into this.
I’m interested in knowing what percentage of the 95% of the “believers in morgellons disease”, who were diagnosed with delusions of parasitoisis is, who:
A. Took their doctor’s recommended prescription
B. Went to the mental health care physician they were referred to
C. Told the truth of their experience to the mental health specialist
D. Received, then, further testing to rule out a parasitic illness
From all that I’ve gathered, over the time I’ve familiarized myself with this matter, the overwhelming majority of these patients refuse their diagnoses, and watse time, money, and effort, going to other doctors, who diagnose the same. Of course, they worsen, and do unthinkable things, then.
Based on the odds, i don’t think there is a percentage out of that 95%. Otherwise, there would be no belief in “morgellons disease”, in my very strong opinion.
There’s numerous causes of lesions, and numerous causes of crawling sensaations. Everyone that presents with lesions is going to have fibers in them. There’s really no way to prevent that. Most of these people have gotten a diagnosis of DOP. I believe those diagnoses are accurate, and I believe that that can be easily determined by visiting the message boards of the believers. Obviously, some of the believers have additional mental problems. They were not left out in the cold by the medical profession. These doctors could tell by listening to these patients, that they had mental problems, andf all the time, the patients thought their doctors weren’t listening. After coming to the realization that these people were delusional, the doctors merely attempted to take care of first things first. But the patients thought they knew more than their doctors, and this is simply not the truth. The problem that they have in common is mentsl. If that were taken care of first, then it would be a lot easier to get to the bottom of any remaining problems. But they have abandoned good doctors. It’s not the other way around.
Who was publicized saying:
http://tinyurl.com/nz3m4
http://tinyurl.com/gulng
http://tinyurl.com/lxkyx
http://tinyurl.com/jvrxs
When the creator of “morgellons disease” said all those things, she struck a chord with these people, and they really and truly think that doctors don’t know what they’re doing. They firmly believe they are supposed to practice medicine differently, and refuse to realize that they didn’t follow through to find any means to an end of their sufferings.
Aherah, it’s not “proof”, it’s “evidence”. Not particularly good evidence, but better than the evidence for the opposing case.
Sure, people describe the same thing in different ways, and describe different things in the same ways. If someone says “itching, lesions and fibers”, then what exactly are they describing?
You need a bit more evidence of commonality than a few words. There is a lot of evidence that things are different, no evidence that they are the same.
Formication is formication – lots of different causes of it. Are you saying you’ve got some unique new type of itching that only Morgellons believers have?
Re: Posts 95-98, for Aherah–
Thanks again for answering my questions. Like I said, I appreciate your candor. My only comment on what you said (and I tread lightly here because the implication might be insulting, though I don’t mean it to be) is with regard to your husband “not wanting to hear” about your fibers because he can’t “control” the scary situation. A warning bell sounded for me–it could be his way of “managing” the situation since you cannot be swayed from the idea that you have a new, undiscovered disease called morgellons. Of course, you know him so you’re much better prepared to say what his thinking is than me, whose opinion came from just reading a paragraph of your explanation.
I don’t personally think you’re delusional (which seems to be supported by your current doctor), but I do think there is a possibility that your interpretation of the cause of the fibers is wrong. At any rate, take care of yourself and your family and hopefully your current doctor will find some answers and a successful treatment.
You tried to impress us with your knowledge of philosophy. It went over many heads. Now you are repeating yourself. Go fish.
Anyone who has done a study of parasites will soon find out that the population of parasites that has not been identified and studied is way larger than the ones that we have.
So, if people from around the country, with no communitcation with each other, suddenly pop up with the same set of symptoms, I am wondering why there is such resistance in believing them.
Why is this a matter of blaming the victims? How much of the population must this spread to before some damned agency decides to explore this?
These people are going to school and infecting children. They are donating blood. There is no screening for this. Is this how the govenment protects the population?
Like chronic fatigue syndrome, there is no indication or evidence that Morgellons is an infectious disease.
People describing the same thing does not mean that it actually happened that way. People tend to describe alien abductions in the same way, does that mean that thousands of people have been abducted by aliens?
“Is this how the govenment protects the population?”
The CDC sent letters to all patients who’d written them, believing themselves to be victims of “morgellons disease”, to seek medical attention at their local health care providers.
That is how the government protects the population. Please consider whether such patients are being responsible citizens, and abiding by their instructions.
Also, I do not agree, at all, that this population of patients has the same set of symptoms. Perhaps, they seem to in one respect, and one respect, only.
margespock asks:
“PEOPLE DESCRIBING THE SAME THING DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED THAT WAY. PEOPLE TEND TO DESCRIBE ALIEN ABDUCTIONS IN THE SAME WAY, DOES THAT MEAN THAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABDUCTED BY ALIENS?”
ask the resident space cadet, ufo expert, cliff mickelson, executive officer of the new morgellons odor.
Please, Texastar, for the 4th time…
When you’d said to Michael:
I’d commented, 3 times, before:
If I didn’t want to know, I wouldn’t ask.
yes smellycan there are other doctors who have seen the fibers butt, if I gave their names you would just add them to the list of doctors that you don’t believe. so go fish.
Joan Dalton,
Morgie micrographs and tests don’t indicate any parasites other than those that cause illnesses that are already known about.
I don’t have any trouble believing that some Morgies are experiencing the symptoms that they describe, but that certainly doesn’t mean that Morgellons is anything new.
There’s no evidence, however, that a large number of people are experiencing the same symptoms. This cannot be based on the overy broad case definition used by the MRF. According to that definition, almost everyone on earth has Morgellons, and that certainly isn’t the truth.
All of the symptoms on the list can be caused by other known diseases, except for the fibers. And environmental contamination and/or bodily repair processes adequately explain that.
The CDC is exploring it, but, in my opinion, it isn’t because they believe that Morgellons is a disease or a new syndrome. It’s because that so much pressure was put on them to do so. They know that a very large portion of these people are delusional. I know that too.
There is no evidence, whatsoever, that these people are infecting others. It’s quite likely, however, that a lot of them have MRSA, which is highly contagious. They wouldn’t have that if they would have listened to the CDC, and followed their doctors instructions.
Tall Cotton
I appreciate your finally responding to the question, Texastar, after your having said, “present some meat and potatoes instead of your unfounded spun, selfserving verbage”, to Michael. Most of us have kept up with the media events you’d been referring to. Based on your evasiveness, and, now, the answer you’ve supplied, you aren’t wanting to be believed. Thank you.
Texastar – The doctors in reference (post #135) don’t they treat some of the Morgellons victims with Rife Machines?
Here is a story about someone who used a rife machine.
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/fakehe1.htm
Smileykins and Texastar were referring to Morgellons Doctors in the media reports. I’ve never heard of any except those that Smileykins listed, and they are believed to be quacks.
bugs alive said:
“AND THEY ARE BELIEVED TO BE QUACKS.”
and who besides you and adopted believe them to be quacks. You are not listening to the critters again are you? you know they lie and will try to fool you again.
Texastar,
You need to go back to M.L. and get some new instructions. Your tactics against me are a total waste of time. All you are succeeding in doing is demonstrating both your and her insanity.
Tall Cotton
Speaking of the MRF, what are they doing? Their site has not changed for three weeks, and no new stories have been posted anywhere.
I wonder what they are spending Suzanne Steadman’s $10,000 on.
Dear MAF:
Where have you gotten the idea that anybody is a junkie? I, as well as anyone, AM qualified to say that “morgellons disease” does not exist. A mother with probable Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy is still using her little boy, and her older kids, to a lesser extent, since the death of her husband. Anyone who sees nothing wrong with that, for the sake of needing to hold on to their beliefs in “her disease” that she gave to them, is more far gone than I care to consider.
Aside from the obvious, she came forth with the fact that she is mentally ill, in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette story, recently, as well as on ABC, showing the letter from the doctor at Johns Hopkins University Hospital. She us in denial of just how ill she truly is, even though she tells of what her existence is like, in the article.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06204/707970-85.stm
People who have fallen for the belief that they have her “morgellons disease” never wanted to know anything about her. All that people who think they have “her disease” ever wanted, and all that they were ever concerned about, was that someone finally believed them. Of course, such people lack the capacity to realize it. I’m sure they wouldn’t want to, anyway.
She obsesses. Maybe she’d even hallucinated, since she’d thought, and is still convinced (?) that Drew’s having fibers stuck in his eczematous skin, when he was 2 years old, is some sort of new, yet 400 year old, disease, since he’d mentioned bugs. She won’t allow his skin to heal, still pulling his own skin cells out, on national television, from a sore that is 4-5 years old, and putting it underneath her microscope, like so many others.
A lot of people, doing similar things, misinterpreting their skin, and being overly involved with it, saw their doctors in the past, and were diagnosed with DOP, and many refused to treat for it. If this scenario doesn’t fit anyone reading this, then, don’t let it bother you. It’s been stated clearly, and factually, all along, since the beginning of this heinous crime against a population of people unable to take care of themselves properly.
I haven’t referred to those doctors that are affiliated with “morgellons disease” as quacks. I have said that they “are in on it”. Crooks is a more fitting word. Dr. Schartz was easy enough to see through, same as the rest. You’re all too ill to know any better. Those of you speaking out against anyone who sees what is being done, illustrate how badly you need help. Lots of dishonesty is all we see out of many of you.
what actually does qualify u smoochybut?
I GOT THE ANSWER PEOPLE
WAIT FOR IT
FROM HER OWN MOUTH….
I GIVE YOU SMILYKINS HERSELF,smileykins Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Norman, I DO have a low education level. I only graduated high school
ROLL UP ROLL UP
SMILYKINS SPEAKS ON EVERYTHING
WHITH A KNOWLEDGE BASE OF
ZERO
ABOUT HERSELF, AS USUAL…
smileykins Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Norman, I DO have a low education level. I only graduated high school
smileykins Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Norman, I DO have a low education level. I only graduated high school
ROLL UP ROLL UP
SMILYKINS SPEAKS ON EVERYTHING
WHITH A KNOWLEDGE BASE OF
ZERO
smileykins Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Norman, I DO have a low education level. I only graduated high school
ROLL UP ROLL UP
SMILYKINS SPEAKS ON EVERYTHING
WHITH A KNOWLEDGE BASE OF
ZERO
ROLL UP ROLL UP
SMILYKINS SPEAKS ON EVERYTHING
WHITH A KNOWLEDGE BASE OF
ZERO
smileykins Says:
October 17th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Norman, I DO have a low education level. I only graduated high school
ROLL UP ROLL UP
SMILYKINS SPEAKS ON EVERYTHING
WHITH A KNOWLEDGE BASE OF
ZERO
Time to pop ya clown suits on
Hi, Michaelllans…
I agree that many people who believe suffer morgellon’s are most likely identifying chance contaminants, like lint. However, your scepticism is based on a number of presumptions, and science isn’t allowed to ‘presume’.
The main premise upon which you scepticism appears to be based is the idea that it’s highly improbable that so many different symptoms and ailments would be caused by only one pathogen.
However, in relation to parasitosis (and not delusional parasitosis), a precedence exists: it has been documented that symptoms related to the nematode infection, trichinosis, has at various times, been misdiagnosed as many as 50 different unrelated conditions and diseases. Even accompanying physiological deterioration caused by the trichonella worm has sometimes been medically misdiagnosed as related to such conditions as arbitrary as alcoholism. When in fact the patient had been self-medicating with alcohol because he had been feeling so miserable as a result of the ongoing adverse affects of misdiagnosed nematode infection.
Since the trichonella worm often migrates through the cerebrospinal fluid of the host, soemtimes producing hallucinations, the resultant neurological and psychotic symptoms can also be mistaken by the investigating doctor as related to non-infective mental disturbance.
The point is: the extent of such varied misdiagnoses when medically assessing the manifestations of a chronic nematode infection, like trichinosis, (both physical and neurological) demonstrates just how varied the symptoms can be in regards to infection by a single pathogenic parasite.
Anyhow, I’m in Thailand right now, and I’ve been told I have to go kayaking down a river to look for a house to rent. So I’d better sign off.
But Michael….my parting message for you would be: I think you express yourself extemely well, and you’re obviously a clever thinker. But always be wary of an emotional bias in your analyses. It appears you want to be sceptical for reasons other than pure logic. So don’t be too confident in your appraisal of various circumstances. If eventually you’re proven wrong, it’s a longer way to fall.
Regards,
Jules.
No it’s not.
My main premise is there there is no evidence that there is any connection between the varied symptoms people list. Of course it’s “possible”. Just both highly unlikely, and lacking in evidence.
How would your hypothesis be falsifiable?
That’s funny.
Triconella? hehehehehe
TC
I have just provided some links for those that like to read about “wormy things”. One of those links is a little pretty picture of the worm.
Trichinosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis
Worm Called Trichinella
http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/para-lab/slide1a.htm
Trichinella
http://foodsafetyindia.nic.in/trichinellafaq.htm
Trichinella spiralis
http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/food-safety-topics/animal-diseases/trichinella-spiralis/index.htm
“My main premise is there there is no evidence that there is any connection between the varied symptoms people list. Of course it’s “possible”. Just both highly unlikely, and lacking in evidence”. – Michael.
Why would do you consider a multitude of varying symptoms which could be caused by a single, infective pathogen “highly unlikely” – when there already exists a number of precedents demonstrating this to not only be “possible”, but actually quite “common”?
– Jules.
Because there is no evidence that this is what is actually happening.
Just because something is possible, and has happened before, does not make it actually likely to be happening again in any given circumstance. What exactly is the evidence?
And are you actually following this “Occam” thing? Do you disagree with the friar?
G’day, Tallcotton,
It’s actually “trichonella” – as in , trichonella spirilas.
I’m using that species of microscopic nematode as an example of an infection which can produce such a variety of symptoms, that when outbreaks of it have occurred in the past, it has commonly been misdiagnosed as number of individual and unrelated ailments.
In fact, this infection has been documented to have been misinterpreted by the medical establishment (in which many of you appear to have such undying faith) as relating to as many as 50 different diseases. In such instances, it’s a case of systematically misinterpreting the “one as many”.
Conversely, what ‘Michael’is implying is that, in the case of Morgellon’s Syndrome”, it’s probably a case of people misinterpreting “the many as one”.
Both scenarios are equally possible: Doctors have “often” mistaken outbreaks of chronic infection by a misdiagnosed parasite as a series of unrelated ailments. Although, interestingly, it seems there haven’t been as many cases of patients or doctors misinterpreting a series of unrelated ailments as erroneously being the product of one infection.
If a broad community holds fears or suspicions that they may be suffering from a condition caused by the same pathogen – or if others think that this fear and suspicion is merely the product of self-delusion – then obviously there’s only one feasible way to find out which beliefs are correct: Science must be applied.
Even then, it’s even still possible that mainstream methods of scientific protocol employed to invesitigate the pathogenic role of agents in producing a given set of symptoms can also be flawed (for example, even Koch’s Postulate could arguably be flawed in a
rare cases where two infective agents, combined in a symbiotic relationship, are responsible for producing a symptom profile related to just one infection).
The worst case scenario, of course, would be where scepticism prevails to such a preliminary degree that even science is not applied to the questions hanging over a health issue, such as Morgellon’s.
In this case, the very worst outcome that could potentially inhibit the progress of western medicine is that such concerns by supposed “Morgellons sufferers” are not investigated because people like “Michael” presume a single pathogen capable of producing such a wide variety of symptoms to be “highly unlikely”.
I am not suggesting that Michaelllans is in fact disputing the value of science to either prove or disprove the existence of such a condition, as morgellon’s. But if she isn’t, then what on earth is she doing?
What is she actually saying here about the Morgellons controversy? Is she merely “guessing” that morgellon’s syndrome will eventually be disproved as a real disease state? Has she been putting energy into “predicting” that Morgellon’s syndrome will eventually be nothing more than the delusional product of patients minds in misinterpreting a variety of common, garden variety ailments as constituting the one pathogenic state?
If so, then what is the value in that?
If she is proposing to actually stick some hard cash on bets either way, then I could see at least some practical value in her pre-empted discourse. If not, then what’s the point in it all?
Or is all this nothing more than an ego-based academic wank?
So why not just take a ‘wait and see’ approach? The good news is that there are now some highly qualified scientists out there, like Dr. Wymore and those contracted by the CDC, who are thankfully open-minded enough to be taking the issue seriously.
The good news is that there are scientists who presumably will try to answer the questions for us because they are are open to possibilities, and not influenced in their mode of inquiry, or the value of initiating that inquiry, BEFORE the results have come in.
Regards,
Jules.
“Just because something is possible, and has happened before, does not make it actually likely to be happening again in any given circumstance” – Michael
yeah….but it also doesn’t make it “unlikley”, either?
Why is this pathogen not pictured in any of the hundreds of Morgie micrographs? It leads me to believe that the organism does not exist. There is a disease, however, that can cause all of these symptoms. It’s called DOP.
TC
I prefer calling “morgellons disease” whatever patients, who think they have it, had wrong with them before Mary Leitao’s sick mind conjured this mess up, created a web site for it, and took all of the registrant’s problems and threw them ALL into her made-up case definition. Nobody has anything in common, except for having received diagnoses of delusional parasitosis. It stems from quite a few underlying causes, having a primary psychotic form, a secondary functional form, and a secondary organic form. That’s why there are varying symptoms and “various disease descriptions”, as the Morgellons Research Foundation stated below….
Dig this excerpt of a post from a morgie message board:
There was more, and it was bad, concerning an upset spouse and this person’s belief that their young child has parasites too. As usual, none of it sounds like anyone who’s wanting to get better.
Julian, I’m afraid I must not have explained things very well.
The likelyhood that there is some organism new to science that is causing some varied health problems to some people is obviously very high.
The trouble would be finding these people if they have nothing in common, and if there was no test for the organism.
Now, you give me a group of people – the Morgellons believers – who clearly have nothing more in common other than their belief in Morgellons, and you suggest it is “likely” that the same unknown organism is causing their problems?
How are these people different from any other random group of sick people?
What do they have in common that defines them as a distinct group?
Not fibers in lesions, since everone with lesions will have fibers in them.
Not MUPS, since tens of millions of people have MUPS.
Not mental problems, since tens of millions of people have mental problems.
What do they have in common?
They’re all delusional. Otherwise, they wouldn’t believe they have Morgellons.
TC
You know that you have stood alone, going exceedingly beyond explaining things well, Michael. Julian, perhaps you’ve just dropped in and haven’t yet familiarized yourself here, but, may I ask who authored toxicworm.com, “A Silent Pandemic”, that clicking onto your name takes readers to? Over the years, I have known people who’d had trichinosis, and it isn’t uncommon. They didn’t present with abnormal symptoms, or have delusional thoughts. Although, I have actually read that some patients on morgie message boards have been prescribed Flagyl. Trichinosis IS trichinosis, “Morgellons disease” is not due to it, nor is it due to a “new, undectable, and undiscovered pathogen”, as all the believers are convinced. The accounts of the behaviors that the majority of the patients publicize, on line, correspond with one, undeniable, disorder.
“How are these people different from any other random group of sick people? What do they have in common that defines them as a distinct group? Not fibers in lesions, since everone with lesions will have fibers in them. Not MUPS, since tens of millions of people have MUPS. Not mental problems, since tens of millions of people have mental problems.What do they have in
common?” – Michael.
Dr. Randy Wymore, a qualified medical researcher, obviously has identified similarities among many of the people who present themselves as “Morgellons” sufferers. Presumably the CDC also has, or else they wouldn’t have commissioned a team of scientists to investigate the syndrome.
All skin lesions may well contain insignificant fibres. However, Dr. Wymore claims to have identified consistencies occurring in the type of fibres identified in those claiming to suffer Morgellon’s Syndrome. He claims that what is unusual about these fibres is that they are often blue or red, and that they have also been identified underneath unbroken skin.
Now you must remember that when Dr. Wymore first heard reports of people suffering from skin legions which appeared to produce odd coloured fibres, this man was as sceptical as yourself. It was only after he investigated the issue in a more formal and coordinated manner, that he gradually became more convinced that there was at least some degree of truth to many of these claims.
Having said that, I am sure that a fair percentage of these reports, and the fibres people claimed were being ommitted from skin legions, really are nothing more than chance contaminants of samples which are completely irrevelant to any defined disease state. This is also what Dr. Wymore has stated. None-the-less, amid the prevailing chaos and confusion surrounding this controversy, there still appears certain consistencies that obviously warrant further examination. You, Michael, may not know what these consistencies are, because you probably haven’t been looking at the issue as closely as Dr. Wymore has.
When people hold positions of authority with respect to the care and health of the public, they cannot afford to be making any mistakes based purely upon presumption. If anything, when dealing with something as important as public health care ans safety it is always wisest to ‘err on the side of caution’.
Now, I’m not aware of your professional status, Michael, or the field of work in which you are qualified to practice. If, however, you happen to be a qualified microbiologist, pathologist, or even an epidemiologist, and you have investigated this issue to the same extent as those professionals, like Dr. Wymore (or the other woman who started all this, whom I’m told holds a post graduate degree), or the scientists contracted by the CDC to investigate this syndrome, and then you arrive at an informed conclusion that there is absolutely nothing in these reports, then your scepticism obviously would hold some integrity.
If however you are looking at this issue from the outside in a relatively superficial manner or, indeed, are employing the methods of inquiry practiced by a 14th century monk (rather than those dictated by modern scientific protocol, such as the criteria of Koch’s Postulate), then you can rant and rave all you want (even as much as I have, myself), but your opinions are comparatively baseless. They come across as though they are based upon presumption, or indeed, a degree of emotional bias indicated by suggestions like “it’s highly unlikely”.
This same conundrum also surrounded that other health issue, “The Chronic Fatigue Syndrome” (CFS). When the condition first appeared, many doctors were highly sceptical that such a condition even existed. They had been programed to believe that, if it’s not printed in the textbooks, then it just can’t be happening. Many medical professionals assumed that CFS was “all in the mind”, in the same way that you and smiley-what-not or TC believe Morgellons is all in the mind. Eventually, over time, however, the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome became more accepted by mainstream medicine, and better defined.
Now you may well ask “What do these people claiming to suffer chronic fatigue have in common? Afterall, everybody can suffer fatigue?” It was only after scientists investigated this health issue more closely that a more detailed symptom profile emerged.
Presumably, this must be what has happened with Dr. Wymore. It was only after observing the details of such a condition that he became more convinced there was something in it, afterall.
You know, for many years stomach ulcers were assumed by mainstream medicine to be caused soley by stress. This was a physical condition that western medicine had interpreted – or MISinterpreted – to be pertaining to merely a psychological problem, in the same way you and your sceptics believe the problems of Morgellon sufferers relate primarily to a psychological or psychiatric condition.
As you probably know, thanks to the work of the Nobel Prize winner, Dr. Barry Marshall, it is now accepted by western medicine that ulcers are actually caused by the gram-neg. bacterium, Helicobacter Pylori. Even when this discovery was first made, still most of mainstream medicine didn’t want to accept it because it meant for years they had been misdiagnosing their patients suffering stomach ulcers. But western medicine often gets it wrong.
So it all boils down to one thing: Wait for the evidence to come in. You are attempting to appraise a situation or a “given set of circumstances” without gaining access to ALL the facts or ALL the circumstances. Those facts which you are not privy to are most likely being developed now, upon a microscopic level, within the confines of some laboratory in Atlanta.
It may well turn out that your sceptical views are eventually vindicated. Alternatively, it may turn out the exact opposite. At this stage, you or I just don’t know how the chips may fall in regards to this issue. It is neither “likely” nor “unlikely” that what people have been claiming is true or false. You can employ the esoteric philosophy of a 14th century friar to make it sound like you know what you’re talking about, but all it boils down to is a “guess”. It is nothing more than a prediction as to what a scientific investigation will eventually conclude. And unless you want to run a book on it and place bets either way, such pre-emptive speculation amounts to nothing more in real practical terms than the intellectual equivalent of lying back and fiddling with your genitalia, to fill in a bit of spare time.
I hope for your sake you manage to extract at least a semblance of some kind of (cerebral?) orgasm to make such a pointless exercise a little worthwhile.
Regards,
Jules.
Smileykins…are you honestly suggesting that there have been documented NO abnormal symptoms, either physical or psychological (or rather, neurological), related to trichinosis???
Go and do your homework….then we’ll talk.
regards,
Jules.
“They’re all delusional. Otherwise, they wouldn’t believe they have Morgellons” – TC
How can one debate ‘absolutes’ such as this?
Funny, I was just talking about Barry Marshall. How he actually used real statistically based scientific methods to figure out and then prove what was going on. The complete opposite of Professor Wymore’s approach.
The unusual thing is that they are blue and red? Even Wymore would admit that the majority of fibers are either white, blue or red. Look at some lint sometime.
Koch’s postulates vs. Occam’s razor? Funny, because Koch’s postulates are a set of criteria that are entirely based on Occam. Koch suggests four criteria that must be met to establish a new entity. I don’t think you’ve actually understood either Koch or Occam.
My credentials are totally irrelevent. I’m a retired computer programmer.
And no, the answers are not being discovered under a microscope in Atlanta. The proposed CDC investigation is due to take place in Los Angelese, and will not start until 2007. It’s not going to give you any answers you can accept either way.
Put up or shut up Jules. Explain how Koch’s postulates apply to toxicworm.com. Then explain how you get around Occam.
Professor Wymore has been “claiming” the same things for many months, but I’ve yet to see any evidentiary support of those claims. Where’s the data?
Also, who are the scientists who’ve been “contracted by the CDC” to investigate Morgellons?
“Funny, I was just talking about Barry Marshall. How he actually used real statistically based scientific methods to figure out and then prove what was going on. The complete opposite of Professor Wymore’s approach”. – Michael
Give the bloke a chance. He hasn’t concluded his research yet, because I assume he’s only just started. Dr. Barry Marshall didn’t use “statistically based scientific methods to figure out, and then prove what was going on”.
He obviously must have proven H. Pylori was the causative agent via correct sceintific protocol, or else his findings wouldn’t have been accepted. But are you suggesting he used statistics to embark upon this process of establishing this fact? He knew he was right when he simply swallowed a glass of the bacteria, and then developed an ulcer. Then he set about proving it to the rest of the world.
Sorry, that wasn’t well written: When I said “Give the bloke a chance” – I was referring to Dr. Wymore. But then it’s confusing when I went on to speak about Dr. Marshall and H. Pylori.
It was rushed, that’s all….hehehe.
Jules,
What a lengthy and mindless rant you’ve made. One of Wymore’s first statements was that the fibers are not environmental contaminants, then he claimed that they don’t burn at 1400 degrees. This almost guarantees them to be environmental. And it’s obvious that many of the so-called Morgellons fibers do quite readily burn at low temperatures, and they’ve been identified as cotton. They are also mostly red and blue. These are the two most common colors of clothing fibers.
Do you really believe that the woman that started this nonsense is qualified to research this matter? Havn’t her doctors already declared that she is mentally ill? The doctor said she had Munchhausen Syndrome by Proxy, and he recommended that she have a full mental examination. Didn’t you see her picking at her son’s 5 year old lesion?
If you would study the symptoms of the Morgellons patients you would realize that they have very few physical symptoms in common. They obviously suffer from a wide variety of known physical disorders. They do, however, share a group of mental symptoms, and those symptoms indicste that they are delusional.
Can you really not see the insanity among the members of the Morgellons community. I’m soory for you, if you don’t. Afterall, it is quite obvious.
Wymore doesn’t appear to do anything in a professional manner. Where are his reports? What is the evidence to back up his claims? I can tell you right now, he’ll never prove that Morgellons is a new disease. That’s because it isn’t. It’s as old as mankind itself, and it’s called Delusions of Parasitosis.
The CDC hasn’t even begun their investigation yet. It’s not scheduled until 2007. They’ve always known what Morgellons is, but they were pressured into investigating a known delusional disorder that was given a freaky 17th century name.
Tall Cotton
“The unusual thing is that they are blue and red? Even Wymore would admit that the majority of fibers are either white, blue or red. Look at some lint sometime”.
…yeah, but what’s coloured “lint” doing beneath unbroken skin?
Of course Dr. Wymore would be factoring in such obvious notions in his scientific appraisal of this issue. Yet he still arrives at the conclusion that there is something in it that warrants serious consideration and further investigation. You may not think so, but apparently he does. Like Dr. marshall, he is now setting about investigating this issue according to conventional scientific processes. If he doesn’t, as a professional researcher I’m sure he is abundantly aware that his findings would never be accepted by the scientific community.
Just wait and see what these scientists turn up, Morgellons. Then you can discuss the issue in a more informed and enlightened manner – rather than engaging in mindless speculation.
Yes, he used statistics, almost exclusively. He and Warren initially established a correlation between the presence of ulcers and the presence of H. Pylori.
Of course, correlation does not equal causation. Most people though the causation was not there because H. Pylori could not live in the stomach, so Marshall drank some simply to prove this. He did not get an ulcer (only gastritis), he just showed that H. Pylori could live in the stomach lining.
Then more statistics were used to show a correlation between the use of antibiotics that targeted H. Pylori and the remission of the ulcers. Evidence accumulated.
He didn’t “know he was right”. He’s a scientist. He just strongly suspected his hypothesis was correct, and he had the statistics to back it. Wymore is 100% convinced he is right, and he has no statistics to back it.
“The unusual thing is that they are blue and red? Even Wymore would admit that the majority of fibers are either white, blue or red. Look at some lint sometime”.
…yeah, but what’s coloured “lint” doing beneath unbroken skin?
Of course Dr. Wymore would be factoring in such obvious notions in his scientific appraisal of this issue. Yet he still arrives at the conclusion that there is something in it that warrants serious consideration and further investigation. You may not think so, but apparently he does. Like Dr. Marshall, he is now setting about investigating this issue according to conventional scientific processes. If he doesn’t, as a professional researcher, I’m sure he is abundantly aware that his findings would never be accepted by the scientific community.
Just wait and see what these scientists turn up, Morgellons. Then you can discuss the issue in a more informed and enlightened manner – rather than engaging in mindless speculation.
He’s not concluded his research, yet he’s making some pretty extraordinary claims. Is this the scientific process?
“Yes, he used statistics, almost exclusively. He and Warren initially established a correlation between the presence of ulcers and the presence of H. Pylori”. – Michael
True…but the initial event that sent him down this path was first observing odd-looking bacilli occurring in the presence of an ulcer. When he asked pathologists what they were, they presumed they were insignificant and meaningless. He apparently thought otherwise. (I saw the interview when he described this).
THEN, Dr. Marshall may well have employed statistical data to corroberate the presence of H. Plyori and those suffering ulcers. But it was this initial personal observation of the strange bacilli that was the starting point of his research.
So what’s the difference between that scenario, and Dr. Wymore’s preliminary observation of fibres beneath skin? Give him a bit of time, and now I’m sure he’ll attempt to embark upon the more thorough, professionally credible path of proving his initial suspicions.
I can’t see any great difference between the two processes.
Look, I have to go….I have a life outside this thing, and I have to attend to it..Jules.
Given the complete lack of verifiable data, the same admonition can be given to you.
Marshall used the statistics of an evidence based approach. Wymore rules things mysterious because they allegedly aren’t in a police database. Simple things seem to be illusive to Wymore. If he had any sense, he never would have embarked on this mission.
TC
Jules, you didn’t answer my question. Are you ignorant of the fact that Wymore took these patients’ word on saying that their physicians said, “it’s all in your head”, and that he is so dense, that he publicly announced, in May of this year, that they are not delusional (like you) and that it is not all in their heads because you can see the fibers in their skin? The PhD knows nothing about delusional parasitosis, and nothing about a lot of things.
I’ve read reports of morgies diagnosed with lyme disease, sarcoidosis, lupus, valley fever, strep throat, mononucleosis, various fungal infections, crohns disease, and various forms of cancer. I’ve read a whole lot of reports of morgies with irritable bowel syndrome. I’ve read a lot of reports of morgies taking sulfa drugs. Since a lot of morgies are female, they could be on birth control pills. Since many are menopausal, “maybe” some of them are on estrogens (although, I doubt it, since matters that they should exercise discretion in discussing have them so confused, it’s clear they don’t have a doctor).
All of the aforementioned things are associated with erythema nodosum. Usually, erythema nodosum is a straightforward, simple diagnosis for a doctor to make simply by examining a patient and noting the typical firm area of raised tenderness that is red along with areas which have had lesions resolved, which might show a bruised-like appearance. It is not a difficult diagnosis for an experienced doctor, and it does not typically require other investigative tests.
The disorder is a cutaneous reaction consisting of inflammatory, tender, nodular lesions, usually located on the anterior aspects of the lower extremities. The process may be associated with a wide variety of diseases and conditions with the most common being infections, sarcoidosis, rheumatologic diseases, inflammatory bowel diseases, medications, autoimmune disorders, pregnancy, and malignancies. The typical eruption consists of a sudden onset of symmetrical, tender, erythematous, warm nodules and raised plaques usually located on the shins, ankles and knees. Often the lesions are bilaterally distributed.
Okay. I’ve seen quite a few pictures of morgies’ legs with sores on them and pictures of excoriated shins. It’s a well-known fact that morgie patients pick at themselves. It is a well known fact that they have cognitive dysfunctions, and many have previously diagnosed mental conditions. It’s a well-known fact that fibers are everywhere and that anything small enough will adhere to sticky, oozing, lesions.
Ulceration is never seen in erythema nodosum and the nodules heal without atrophy or scarring. Of course, that would not be the case with someone excoriating the nodules, and getting fibers stuck to their self-inflicted wounds. Usually, acute bouts of erythema nodosum are associated with a fever, fatigue, malaise, arthralgia, headache, abdominal pain, vomiting, cough, or diarrhea. Episcleral lesions and conjunctivitis may also accompany the cutaneous lesions. Less frequent clinical manifestations associated with it are lymphadenopathy, hepatomegaly, splenomegaly and pleuritis.The eruption generally lasts 3-6 weeks, but persistence beyond this time is not unusual. Recurrences are exceptional.
One morgie patient with sarcoidosis declares that their doctor says that the lesions they have are self- inflicted, and that there are no cutaneous symptoms associated with sarcoidosis. Well, I believe the first part of that, but one has to consider that anybody can tell when someone has caused a self-inflicted injury to their skin. A doctor would have to address that, and deal with the patient appropriately, plus, if they also presented with concerns of things coming out of their skin, including fibers, of course, that would justify a diagnosis of DOP.
But, if this patient left the nodules of erythema nodosum alone, and went to their doctor who is treating them for sarcoidosis, the doctor would see that they have erythema nodosum and treat them for it. Maybe I’m going out on a limb in saying it, but that could be the case with a lot of these patients who have a lot of the very conditions that erythema nodosum is associated with. Perhaps, were it not for their “nervous habits”, whatever their causes, their doctors could readily see something besides self-inflicted wounds. Treatment of erythema nodosum should be directed to the underlying associated condition, if identified.
I am postulating that since the associated mental conditions, listed on the MRF site, co-exist in patients with the physical conditions listed there, many of which cause this reactive skin disorder, that, perhaps, that is why patients feel the need to dig out these granulomatous nodules. And, it must be that the cognitive dysfunctioning they have prevents them from being able to reason out for themselves, that doctors can only see what they present as a mental condition. If they would treat the conditions making them obsess over the skin condition, first, (like their doctors can only diagnose according to how they present, as I have tried to say, for so long, and in so many ways), then, they could treat the rest of their health problems. Well, but they have formication, too, though, plus, fibers, so again, we have to go back to DOP.
http://www.medicinenet.com/erythema_nodosum/article.htm
http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic138.htm
http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/05/08/70309.php
Yes, something pathologic is happening there. Upon resolution, erythema nodosum may leave only a temporary bruised appearance or leave a chronic indentation in the skin where the fatty layer has been injured. That is, without picking at it. Do I think everyone who thinks they have “morgellons disease” has erythema nodosum? No, of course not. I am just brainstorming a little bit, since this is a reactive condition and the morgies have reported infections and diseases that can cause it. The biggest problem morgies have is in their thinking processes, and it’s leading to a world of harm because they won’t treat it.
Who authored “The Silent Pandemic”. Jules?
The difference is that Wymore has stated he is “100 percent convinced that Morgellons is a real disease pathology”. Yet has has no evidence. Dr Casey states “There’s no question in my mind that it’s a real disease”
There’s the problem. “100% convinced”, “no question”.
But no evidence.
Not science.
The Morgellons movement has brought DOP out of the closet and has taken it mainstream. Wymore seems to identify with a group of people that claim to have been rejected by other, more normal people. Why is that, and, are you sure?
Of course, in reality, the Morgies have rejected everything and everybody that are normal. Arrogance is okay, when a person knows what they are talking about, but Morgies are blind.
TC
Bottom line, Julian doesn’t realize this is a movement of mental patients who fell under deception and helped a munchausen syndrome by proxy mom alert the authorities to the fact that we have people, like this, who forced the government to intervene.
All I know is that a feel extremely ill. I have never felt this bad.
My parents have blown up at me. After the comment the doctor made today..my dad yelled at me saying it is “my fault”.
I said to my parents “you don’t believe me, this is not just in my head, how can I lose my bladder during the night, and be up to the toilet (I was told) more than 7 times.” I know I was quite delerious last night, I was sweating and having awful dreams.
My gut feel is that my parents might think I am just “delusional” and I have no pain, I am just “in the head”, I dunno, I am lost. Dad started talking about the amount of doctors I have seen, and said I have had heaps of tests. Well I flew back at him ranting saying that no one as ever really physically examined me. He said “what do you want them to examine?” I said; “me”. I got really upset and started crying, my voice is all husky and a managed to still say to him “I feel so damn ill, I am at the end of my tether, and this is not my fault”. That is when dad said “it is”.
I tried to leave and my mum kept stopping me. She was saying; “you don’t understand, your living situtation is the problem, he (tony) brings you down,” Implying Tony’s fault which then makes me ill (neurotic I guess they are saying!!) Who the fuck knows, and excuse me for swearing.
I had to push past my mum to get out of the house, had she not had the puppy in her arms, I would have knocked her flat. All I could think of was her thinking “she” is always so damn right, I knew I had to control my rage otherwise it was going to near on make me collapse, they zap my energy. She forgets this is MY life and MY body and I am trying SO hard with all my strength (which is close to “0” today) to fight to stay alive, get help from the doc – without looking like a lunatic.
My parting words to my mum as I yelled getting in the car were; “You just put yourself in my shoes for one minute, I have had no help, what the hell would YOU do”. Then I drove off.
I have pulled the phone socket out of the wall. If my parents want me they can call my mobile, and I know my mum wouldn’t do that, coz it cost more money. Sorry to say this, but they can all go to hell, or stay in hell, which ever way you wanna look at it. I have finished with the lot of em. I haven’t been Christmas shopping and I am too ill to go at this stage. By weekend I could be different, but living this life of not knowing how I will feel from one day to the next because doctors think in there own mind that I am not ill and not even worthy of at least some TLC.
Tony is at a lose also. But his doctors are really looking after him, he has an appointment in the morning, and all his doctors communicate with one another. I haven’t even heard back from the Neurologist, he told me he is waiting on the information from the hospital. How long does all this take?? Could I just not go into hospital for at least one afternoon and have a bunch of tests done. I am not fit to drive. I need to lie down. I am just wondering when my hands are going to pack up on me. At least I can still type. But who knows with this “unknown illness” I have. Cruel.
How crazy hey, having to turn to a computer for some help, validation, i dunno, it just doesn’t seem real. I have no one else to talk to, no one else understands this journey. When I type these days I don’t even give it a second thought of who may read it, I don’t care anymore, I am all out. I wish it were a dream, but I have no escape from anything. Christ almighty I am only human, and I have NO doctor to talk to at the moment until Thursday, and I am in two minds whether to go, I am scared of her know.
What no one seems to understand is that it feels like they are all “killing me” not as in a conspiracy or “out to get me”. What I mean is the misinformation, and not believing that I am telling the truth. I am so stupid for being so honest my entire life, that is my crime??
I don’t want to have to be forced to take to my bed, I want to to do things during the day, but I can’t, I am so incapacited. If I wanted to think conspiracy theories and loose the plot I could quite easily; the radio and television is so focused around ME, I wish I could die sometimes, I said to Tony this afternoon very calmly, “I do not want to be forced to take my own life, but if the pain is too great for me, and God or something gives me a sign, I will do whatever is meant to happen, I am in Gods hands. I have had too many “signs” for about 5 months now, it is getting extremely exhausting for me.
My neurological symptoms are like the “monkey on my back”. Hearing voices in my head all the time, hearing music, people talking to me, singing to me, calming me. I don’t know which way to go. All so very painful. I beg someone to tell me if I am insane and nothing more can be done to help me.
The therapy I am using to keep my light on inside is music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nik8pzThvWU
To My Friend Al in Tasmania Australia,
You know what “YOU” know…and I know what “I” know. I miss you, we are both so exhausted and it is so hard to give each other strength at times. I can feel you and I can hear you too. Thank you for your support.
This link is for you, I know how much you love “Floyd”.
Kudos to you.
Gill.xx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0L6pkGxhs&NR
Dear Michael,
I want to tell you something. I am the most positive person you would ever want to me. My mind could not focus on positive thoughts anymore than it already is!!
I am so exhausted. I am not being negative. I am sure you would enjoy my company, if we ever had the chance to meet ME one day, I don’t think so, but you never know, I never lose hope.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0L6pkGxhs&NR
I am sorry about that, I had the wrong link, he is the right one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGaDlfDMjGE
Tell your psychiatrist, so you can be treated for that. Only one disease is associated with hearing voices, and you’d previously said that a grandmother had schizophrenia, too.
Maybe I need to straighten that up some. We are a free society, but this is a set of patients who opted to disagree with multiple doctors’ diagnoses and treatment plans. Of course, that is a major identifying factor that is typical of the common condition many of them were diagnosed with, repeatedly. Believing themselves to be carrying a new disease is also another typical identifying factor that goes along with the common condition many were diagnosed with.
And then along comes Mary.
The CDC responded, many times, in saying what her “morgellons disease” is. Patients were sent letters instructing them to go to their local health care providers. Nope, many said they had already been there, done that, still yelling for the CDC to do something.
I like living in a free society, making my own choices, and not inviting the government into my affairs. All these people had to do was listen to the first, or surely the second, doctor they went to, and treat what they were diagnosed with. Is government forced compliance an attractive thought? Well, of course it isn’t, and it isn’t real feasible, either.
But, with the deception of actually thinking they have a new disease, and the effort their leader has put into it, and the fervor with which they united in their campaign for recognition, they don’t have a clue what they have asked of the government.
I’m not sure who I should address this too, but I’ll just put it out there, anyway. I don’t have time at the moment to address all the other responses to my other comments, but I’ll try to fit in a bit of time tomorrow. For now, I’ll just relate a long but very interesting story of an experience that happened about 5 years ago.
Around 10 years ago there was an outbreak in my hometown of some kind of chronic condition that was largely being diagnosed as the chronic fatigue syndrome. This wasn’t a case of a whole bunch of hypochondriacs imagining that they suddenly became ill. Like myself, many of my friends who were complaining of identical symptoms were down-to-earth hardworking people who suddenly were struck by a condition that was characterised by severe back pain, acute loss of physical energy, often an unusual rash of small itchy blisters, neurological disturbances (mood swings), headaches – really, many diverse symptoms. Since the development of this condition was simultaneous, there was most certainly the notion of a definite ‘onset’ of some weird mystery ailment. Generally this condition was being diagnosed by local doctors as the chronic fatigue syndrome.
I am an Australian farmer, and my farm almost borders on to the local university. Around 5 years ago, I became friends with a young fellow who was a PhD microbiology student. I s’pose I was just fucking about with a microscope and petri dishes at this time when I told him I believed my blood appeared to be growing a fungus. Naturally he said this was impossible, and that the body had many defences to stop a fungus entering the bloodstream.
Since fungi were his specialty (he has had 10 new species of fungi named after him which he’d identified in frozen antarctic soil samples) he invited me up to his lab to conduct a simple experiment to show me that the fungus in my blood would most certainly be the result of my samples becoming contaminated. At this stage, I agreed he was most likely right, but I still went along with an experiment in his lab. We cleaned my arm thoroughly and extracted blood. Then we dropped it into a sugary solution designed for growing fungi.
Well, strangely enough, and much to my surprise, my blood once again grew a fungus. My friend was pretty surprised also. Anyhow, we were looking at this fungus quite obsessively for a couple of days down microscopes and wondering how it might enter the blood, or if it was still merely a chance contaminant.
Then suddenly my friend pulled out a virtually microscopic fragment of what we first assumed was a piece of fungus, only to discover it was in fact a larva of some kind of microscopic nematode (a roundworm). His supervisor came in on the scene, in fact 3 microbiologists confirmed it to be a typical “fat-tailed larva”, almost identical in shape and size to the larva of trichinella spirilas.
The supervisor was still on about the fungus, and he asked us how we thought the fungus may have entered my blood. I replied “It’s obvious isn’t it? That worm has carried it there”. The fungus really was just an insignificant contaminant – but it had probably been transported there from the intestinal tract by a migrating nematode.
I didn’t know anything about worms or parasites or nematodes at that stage, but I kept going to the library trying to identify the one found in my blood. I’d spent a lot of time in India recently, and I was assuming that it may be something I picked up over there.
Well, this set me off on an admittedly obsessive path of enquiry, collecting local blood samples of those diagnosed with CFS, and photographing anything that I felt was supportive of a nematode infection. When I collected a number of micrographs, I sent them to a parasitologist. However, because I was quite naive in my knowledge of microbiology in those early stages, I admittedly included in the collection of those micrographs images that I later realised really were meaningless contaminants.
Because of the inclusion of these insignificant images, it coloured his view of my efforts, and the parasitologist claimed I was suffering from a psychiatric condition – you guessed it – called “delusional parasitosis”.
Undeterred, I radically edited that collection of photos down to only the few which I was certain were occurring as consistencies in local blood samples. (Now don’t tune off now – this is where it gets really interesting).
Anyhow, I sent this collection to a Professor Tim Roberts who was heading a research team investigating the chronic fatigue syndrome. Along with those micrographs, I also wrote a brief hypothesis relating to the observed affects of this infection on local people – in particular, suspected hormonal changes of the host.
Naturally I was expecting the same negative response.
Well, to my utter surprise, he sent me an email saying outright he was totally amazed at my findings. It turned out that an American scientist, Dr. Larry Klapow, had only recently contacted him, saying he was coming to Australia to give a lecture on how one should go about identifying a new species of nematode he had named “cryptostrongylus pulmoni” (or, the hidden lungworm). He claimed he’d been identifying this nematode in the sputum of a projected 63% of CFS patients. Prof. Roberts urged me to get in contact with this scientist via email.
When I compared the images that I’d photgraphed with the nematode Dr. Klapow had documented, it became abundantly clear that this was the same parasite I’d been observing all along. It was consistent in size, shape and colour.
Judging by the sex organs of this new species (the ‘copulatory bursa’)it is suspected of pertaining to a family of nematodes called trichostrongylids. This genus of nematode is known to secrete a number of hormones and cytokines – chiefly hippocampus cholinergic neurostimulatory peptide (HCNP), which, as the name suggests, affects the hippocampus and the region of the brain associated with memory. And Vasoactive intestinal polypeptide (VIP) which affects the hypothalamus, and consequently the entire endocrine system, as well as blood pressure.
Now, it must be noted that Dr. Kalpow has been conducting preliminary research into this worm in conjunction with Harvard University, so the research does hold a degree of academic integrity.
Oh god….this’ll take for ever to relate this story, but as it turned out, Dr. Klapow and I ended up having a bit of an argument over the internet. It was concerning the true pigmentation of the female C. Pulmoni. I feel I presented a fairly solid argument to him in regards to the reasons why he’d come to make that error. I still believe to this day that the female C. Pulmoni really possesses a deep, sapphire blue pigment. Anyhow, you can read all the reasons why I believe he came to make this mistake on my website, toxicworm.com.
The reason why I compiled that website was because the impression I had received from Dr. Klapow in the tone of the last emails from him, made me strongly suspect that he may well have gone away and realised I was correct in my assertions on this particular point. Because he’s a highly qualified invertebrate biologist, and I’m just an uneducated farmer, I still didn’t want him having the last say on the matter. I also didn’t want him to rip off my original idea.
Since then, and way before I’d even heard of “Morgellons Syndrome”, I’d been postulating the possibility of this species of nematode occurring as cysts. I’d been imagining them as appearing as small colonies of bright red and blue, minute fibres. If the pigment had washed out of these nematodes, those small fibres may even sometimes occur as clear, white objects, the way Dr. Klapow had documented the female C. Pulmoni. Amazingly, I’d also been contemplating the presence of silica, as well (re: micrographs).
Can you imagine my complete surprise when I began to hear reports describing Morgellon’s Syndrome? I assure you, this concept of a brightly coloured red and blue C. Pulmoni nematodes was developed well prior to my even hearing of those other claims. In fact, I only heard about Morgellons about a week ago when someone sent me the Fox news clip mentioning the CDC embarking on an investigation into it. The person that sent me the clip was as shocked as I was.
Anyhow, I can go into greater technical detail if anyone is truly interested at a later date. To be honest, I couldn’t really give the proverbial ‘flying’ if people believe in what I have to say on my website, or not. As mentioned, I merely published my own account because of the disagreement I had with Dr. Klapow in regards to C. Pulmoni. I also claim on the website that the information I impart does not purport to be representing formal scientific evidence. What I have presented are merely ideas – but ones that others have apparently not yet even thought of.
For me, it’ll be interesting to see what the professionals eventually turn up. My money’s obviously on a new species of brightly coloured nematode, however, in the case of Morgellons, there’s still definitely some technical inconsistencies there – particularly in regards to size. Morgellons fibres appear to be larger than the 200mm – 350mm red males), or the 750-950 blue females. But still, one would have to admit, there’s some very remarkable consistencies occurring there as well.
This is why I’m only interested in what is to be revealed on a purely technical and scientific level. I’m not interested in what others have to say about it who are not engaged in a credible form of scientific investigation.
Must go…to be honest, I’m actually quite tired of this whole topic. For me now, it’s just a passing interest.
Regards….Jules.
Jules,
That must be a pyrotode, if it’s actually fire resistant, as Wymore and Staninger claim.
Tall Cotton
Jules, I’m not suggesting this of you, but could there perhaps have been a confluance of unemployment and increased meth usage in your town? That’s very common, and explains the symptoms.
On your personal story, you had fungus in your blood (rare, but not as impossible as you imply). You had a trichinella infection. You then spent years obsessing over highly magnified photographs of things found in your body.
Photos are notoriously difficult to interpret, as you know well. You are not going anywhere with the photos. If you really want to provide evidence that the things you see in your photos are related to the symptoms, you would need to do a proper double blind study with specific detection criteria. Until that happens, you’ve got nothing, and neither does Klapow.
All that does not alter the fact that there is still no evidence that Morgellons is a distinct disease. Even CFS is debatable in that regard, and the diagnostic criteria for CFS is about a hundred times as restrictive as that proposed for Morgellons.
“Meth bugs” are hugely popular, and are a common cause of illusory parasitosis.
Jules, thank you, for answering my question. I don’t need to “do my homework on trichinosis, so that we can talk”. The topic is “morgellons disease”. As you may be aware, some morgie message boards forbid discussions from anyone with a voice of reason. There is no need to think that anything said here could ever detract, in any way, anything, from the existence of an actual disease. It is incorrect of you to think that Michael, or anyone with a differing opinion as to what “morgellons disease” is, has any sort of a desire for vindication, as you stated. We have nothing, whatsoever, invested in whether “morgellons disease” has the possibility of being deemed legitimate by the CDC. We are not that type of people, and there is no need to discuss making any bets on anything. It seems that quite a few morgie people think that we have some sort of a contest going on, and nothing could be farther from the truth. We do not like what we know is occurring in these patients lives, and all that we do is see things as they are, based on the evidence that exists so far. “It All Started With a Young Boy Named Drew.” You’re also way off base, saying that Michael and smiley-what-not or TC believe morgellons is all in the mind. Look in the top left hand corner of this page, and you’ll see what Michael states, and smiley-what-not and TC agree with him. It says:
Familiar yourself in reading here, if you wish, and you’ll discover our opinions on the matter, if your mind is open to it. The belief that this is a new, undiscovered, disease IS all in the mind, Jules, and none of us have said that these people aren’t sick, from a combination of things.
How is anyone ever going to know if they don’t take a look at the patient ie. me.
Today I feel so unwell, I don’t know what to do with myself for comfort or relief.
My symptoms are so varied but awful. My vision is terrible. I am not sure if this is due to this virus cold thing I have. Last night I felt I ccould be heading for a stroke. All the same symptoms I used to get on the antibiotics. Wouldn’t my symptoms alone ie. could be an allergic reaction to antibiotics, alert a doctor to investigate further. This is really getting beyond a joke or even real. I can hardly read the computer screen, and it feels like someone is poking their finger in my eye. I noticed a red mark appear just above my eyelash on my right eye, this is the side which exhibits stroke symptoms. The right side of my head is pounding with pain, and the noise in my ears is like going through a tunnel at a very fast speed in a car or something. I am dizzy, headache, pressure pain all over head, full body vibration, poor balance, gait disturbance, dry mouth and then heavy salivation, loss of urine, nausea, back pain, chest pain, abdominal pain, breast tenderness, change in bowel habit, thirst, cravings, short of breath, stuffy nose, tooth ache in root canel teeth, joint pain, ulcerated mouth, sore tongue, drooling, rolling tongue, rolling eyes…should I say anymore?? and we have a blanket of bush fire smoke outside today, not good for me today. Feels like I can hardly breath sometimes.
I actually look insane I think sometimes. I sit and “rock” myself in the chair for comfort. I am doing it now, I sway from side to side. I don’t understand what this means.
Gillian, nobody can diagnose a complex condition over the internet. You have hundreds of symptoms, and the only way you are going to get better is if you work directly with medical professionals. Nothing on the internet is going to cure you. At best you get comfort and support, but you also waste a lot of time, and get conflicting information and additional sources of worry.
This site is about debunking Morgellons. Not about addressing actual medical conditions. The only advice I am ever going to give you is to work with professional doctors and avoid quacks and quack theories.
I’m sorry I can’t help you beyond that.
Thank you. If I don’t get anywhere with the doctor tomorrow, I may have to see another one, but I don’t see the point in this merry go round. I would rather stay away from doctors and just let time be a healer, if that is going to be possible. I just wish I had some pain relief, or some sort of relief from my suffering. But I know you can not help me.
I have tried as best I can.
I will leave the debunking of Morgellons to the professional people. I am too sick to try to convince anyone of anything anymore.
I will go to Morgellons Group for my own support, I post my music, my message to anyone who may bother to take the time to learn what I am trying to tell everyone. I have nothing else left in my life, especially on days when I am feeling so ill. You try living in my shoes for just one day please, and you wouldn’t like it one bit. I am a very strong woman, but my strength is nearly out.
Thank you anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwatjHcV1ZM
This is a message to Mary Leitao, the founder of the Morgellons Research Foundation.
I can not get in touch with you, no matter how hard I have tried. I have come back to where it all began and now I am stuck, in such a terrible place, and I am far too down to be able to pick myself up. What am I to do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2AEHEhcv6Q&NR
It certainly doesn’t appear as though things are actually being shared with a psychiatrist, if there actually is one, as we continue to bear witness to this. It seems there is nobody, either willing, or able, to step in and do something with so many danger signals going off.
Michael….I’m sorry, I don’t agree with your analysis of my circumstances described in my story. I didn’t have a trichinella infection. I had ‘some’ nematode infection.
The idea that people around my town may have been using crystal meth as an explanation of their illness is absurd. Those people weren’t imagining they had bugs crawling out of their skin, or anything like that. These people were hardworking, practical, physically strong rural types who suddenly came down with a chronic illness characterised by certain physical and neurological symptoms – and all at the same time. This illnes was later diagnosed by doctors as the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Like a said, often there was a chickenpox-type itchy rash of small blisters accompanying those symptoms.
The personal hypothesis I constructed independently turned out to be extraordinarily consistent with the findings of an organised research (a “controlled” pilot study of 200 patients diagnosed with CFS) conducted by a scientist, Dr. Klapow, in conjunction with one of the world’s leading medical research institutes, Harvard University. And yet that personally constructed hypothesis had previously been branded “delusional parasitosis”.
It’s true the final evidence required for the establishment of a new species of neamtode has not yet been produced by Dr. Klapow – that is, analysis and confirmation of uncontaminated DNA.
However the criteria professionally employed to establish a new species morphologically via physical observation is still a very exacting process. I think it’s something like 7 anatomical characteristics must be identified before a positive morphological description of the species is scientifically accepted as bearing some degree of credibility. Although, as mentioned, DNA is the final word on the matter. As such, Dr. Kalpow and his team are now focusing on that project.
My website is not presented as formal scientific evidence. It is a personal hypothesis – merely ideas – that I am presenting mainly to one person, Dr. Klapow.
I am still strongly suspecting that, as a result of our communications via the net, that this scientist has quietly and privately accepted the validity of what I have suggested, in respect to the true pigmentation of the female C. Pulmoni.
Of course, this is just an idea or a ‘hunch’ – but like Dr. Marshall’s initial suspicions that the odd looking bacilli occurring in association with stomach ulcers may be more significant than previously presumed – this also may be a factor that is eventually shown via credible scientific processes to be more significant than previously assumed.
We can but wait and see.
Minute brightly coloured nematodes like C. Pulmoni can certainly appear superficially as nothing more, to the untrained eye, than meaningless fibres, like lint. It is only when someone deliberately sets about looking for the characteristic anatomical features of such a nematode that the objects can be seen for what they really are: ie: nerve rings, posterior structures like copulatory bursa, anterior mouth parts (like prehensile lips), etc.
I’m not saying categorically that the Morgellons fibres are these nematodes – there appears to be certain inconsistencies related mainly to size. That’s why I’m curious as to what size these coloured Morgellons fibres really are? If the reds are ranging from between 200 microns to 350 microns, or the blues are ranging from 750 microns to 900 microns, then there is a strong enough case existing for further examination for the possiblilty of the presence of features indicating a nematode.
Certainly some of the current micrographs of Morgellons fibres appear nothing more than tangles of chance contaminants (lint) – nothing like the image of the documented C. Pulmoni. But I have also seen some micrographs of blue and red fibres that look ‘exactly’ like one would imagine cysts of this parasite to be occuring, if what I have suggested in regards to the blue pigmentation of the female C. Pulmoni is eventually found to be correct.
Wouldn’t that be a joke and a half, eh? Who would be the ones considered to be suffering from delusions then? The people who believed they had been suffering from a parasite infection, or the ones claiming that those people had been suffering “delusional parasitosis”?
I would love to see my psychiatrist.
I have emailed him recently asking for an appointment. I have kept him informed of everything to do with Morgellons.
Even Tony has phoned him. Tony has said himself that “he” needs to speak to my shrink. In the hope that he can maybe help Tony, and also to let him know that NO doctor of medicine (ie. GP) is helping me one bit at the moment. Tony is tearing his hair out with frustration.
If my shrink reads this message; “please can you give me a call?”. I know you understand, and I know you can only help by supporting me at the moment, that is perfectly okay with me, I just need some support that is all.
Jules, let me tell you a story.
Back in 1917 the spanish flue was sweeping the world. A french doctor was examining the blood of patients through his microscope, and thought he found an unusual micro-organism, a twin lobed vibrating bacterium. He examined the blood of other sick patients with his microscope and saw what he though was the same organism. He found the same organism in the heart and liver of a wild duck, and decided that a highly diluted (10^400) solution of wild duck heart and liver would be a cure for the flu, and just about every else as well.
Today, you can buy that cure in your supermarket as Oscillococcinum, a homeopathic flu remedy that does not work.
Nobody has ever seen that vibrating bacteria except for that french doctor, 90 years ago, despite (or more likely because of) considerable improvements in microscopy.
Mis-interpreting what you see through a microscope (or telescope for that matter) is not new. Once you have been convinced you are seeing something, it’s very difficult not to see it. Pareidolia comes in many forms. The best check is to ask a few other people what they see, without prompting them.
Pareidolia – I have seen that before. I used to see the same face when I was a kid on the back of my tic toc clock.
Looks like my doctors appointment has to be cancelled today.
Tony has to see his new Gastroenterologist for his liver problem, and he has double booked. I have no one else to take me, so I won’t be going.
So strange, even if one is an alcoholic they can still get the medical care they deserve, and rightly so. But what the hell have I done so wrong?
Why doesn’t someone look at some of the “goo” from my nose at the moment.
I had yet another awful night sleep. I am very congested, and I am blowing blood out of my nose again.
My body has “flu” like symptoms. I am so fatigued I can hardly keep my eyes open. When I sleep I am not even getting any really good rest, I am so exhausted, and can not find an escape. I feel like I’m going to go blind, my vision is so bad.
Sick to death of this argument, or whatever you call it “debunking”, something needs to be done, and it needs to be asap.
I refuse to have to end up crawling on my hands and knees to get around this house, but it won’t be far away.
My lower back is burning with pain, that is why I had to get out of bed so early. I am literally besides myself with pain, discomfort and totally incapacitated.
I walk around punch drunk, feel as though my legs are going to crumble beneath me. I can not stay still in one spot I sway, I have no balance.
I come and sit at this desk and type on the computer, and I feel a bit more energised??? I don’t understand that at all. Then it can sway the other way, like it did a couple of weeks ago, and I projectile vomitted all over the carpet, unable to make it to the bathroom in time.
Is this any sort of life for a human being to live?
Doesn’t this alone warrant invetigation by a doctor?
I am so over this, it is not funny.
I feel as though I’m going into renal failure, but how the hell would I know, I ain’t a doctor, and the worry alone is enough to kill anyone.
Instead of keeping a shrink “informed of everything to do with Morgellons”, you’d better stop hiding behind it, and tell him about the voices inside your head, and every other detail that you air on here, pertaining to all of your feelings, including fears of all types of diseases and disorders, as well as all of the issues that you have with your family, and everything about the domestic violence situation you’re part of. You aren’t letting that doctor do his job.
Why are we supposed to force fluids when we’re ill? Because if a person is losing their bodily fluids, they’ll end up dehydrated. That is not a good state to be in, but is easily reparable.
Smileykins – I don’t want to sound upset here, just stating the facts.
I have told him the lot, honest. If I have failed to tell him something it is only because I may have forgotton. The last time I saw him he asked me if I felt that the situation (Morgies) was a conspiracy, and I replied; “No I think it is a sign of the time”.
Now, I am not so sure what to think. What more can I do? I have emailed him and Tony has phoned and left messages for him to call us.
I think that is enough information to allow a doctor to do his job – don’t you think so?
Foremost – I wouldn’t even dream of putting out the information I have on the internet, if I didn’t feel I had the right to complain about lack of doctors help.
Morgellons is not a job for an MD. It’s a job for a psychiatrist.
TC
“Mis-interpreting what you see through a microscope (or telescope for that matter) is not new. Once you have been convinced you are seeing something, it’s very difficult not to see it. Pareidolia comes in many forms. The best check is to ask a few other people what they see, without prompting them”. – Michael
Precisely…which is probably a very good explanation as to why scientists may NOT have previously been detecting this organism. They may well have become convinced that they had always been seeing nothing more significant than a piece of lint, since some nemtatodes can appear in that form.
Your views are one-sided, Morgellons.
In respect to Dr. Klapow and the othjer scientists at Harvard contributing to the project – well, these are highly qulaified invertebrate biologists. And I shouldn’t have to repeat myself: Morphological definitions based on physical observation obviously must preceed other more definite forms of confirmation (like DNA extraction) when discovering a new species. You obviously have to identify the thing first. That’s why the processes involved in physical identification is an exacting science. The criteria designed for firm confirmation are rigid – precisely so errors of judgement, as you have just mentioned, may not occur, or are at least diminished to a considerable degree.
You’re starting to disappoint me, Michael’s. I was previously assuming your mind to be much sharper than this. But now that ‘edge’ appears to be dulled by a fairly simplistic bias towards wanting, for some inexplicable reason, to always favour the narrow, one-sided view of the sceptics.
And, incidentally, why are you so obsessed with wanting to debunk efforts to find out the truth regarding Morgellons via regular scientific protocol – to the point of investing the effort into compiling this website?
Why are you so upset about what prematurely comes out the mouths of a couple of scientists, like Dr. Wymore (or whatsy-doo) when everybody already knows it is what those scientists eventually publish in a paper that will be the only thing that is worth serious consideration?
I think you’re starting to lose the plot on this. Maybe it’s that Occam’s fault?
Kind regards,
Jules.
This site is about “skeptical analysis”. But if you feel skepticism is one sided, then you misunderstand it. Skepticism simply examines the quality of evidence behind beliefs.
Do you happen to have a link to the double blinded studies done at Harvard? I can’t seem to find then.
I am “upset” about what Wymore says because it is highly damaging to the health of vulnerable people. Even if he has discovered something new, it’s blindingly obvious that the vast majority of people who think the have Morgellons have a variety of different problems. He’s simply reinforcing their delusions, and is in significant part responsible for their mental state.
And I’m very much in favor of “regular scientific protocol”. Show me some.
Jules said:
No way, get outta town. Can you imagine MY complete surprise when I was told by my daughter that there really was a disease that I’d had, afterall, and to turn on my radio to hear about it almost two years ago? Lots of people are flabbergasted when they hear about it, especially if they can relate to it. When did you hear about it, Jules? What region of Australia is your farm, and do you have cattle, or sheep and goats?
Gillian said:
About all you do is “sound upset here”. If you tell the truth, you’re in a total meltdown crisis, and try to pretend that you aren’t. How come you tell the doctor about “morgellons disease”, rather than what you state on this blog? If you can’t remember how living with an alcoholic makes you feel, and that you are a perpetrator and a victim, both, of domestic violence, and if you can’t recall how your parents make you feel, and how quacks have made you feel, then write it down, just like you do here, so you won’t forget, and take it into your next appointment. You won’t have time to get a word in edgewise about “morgellons disease”, then, and you can start getting real about things. If you say nothing else, other than, “doctor, I hear voices”, that will be a bigger start towards getting better, than ANYTHING. So, no, I don’t think you are allowing a doctor to do his job. You’d better stop wasting valuable time, and cut to the chase about YOU, and get off of “morgellons disease”. The statistics on domestic violence ending in…….(I don’t even need to say it)……but, I think you’d better get real to your doctor, right now, and right fast, before someone else has to become involved and do it for you.
“This site is about “skeptical analysis”. But if you feel skepticism is one sided, then you misunderstand it. Skepticism simply examines the quality of evidence behind beliefs”.
– Michael
(Fair enough…..but there is also a place for examining the quality of evidence behind the beliefs constituting the skepticism).
“I am “upset” about what Wymore says because it is highly damaging to the health of vulnerable people. Even if he has discovered something new, it’s blindingly obvious that the vast majority of people who think the have Morgellons have a variety of different problems. He’s simply reinforcing their delusions, and is in significant part responsible for their mental state”. – Michael
If it’s “blindingly obvious that the vast majority of people who think they have Morgellons have a variety of different problems”…..then show me the evidence. And I’m assuming this evidence would have been demonstrated via a controlled study? If it hasn’t, then you’re being hypocritical.
In fact, until further research has been conducted to closely examine the claims of Dr. Wymore and the supposed Morgellons patients, I’m not sure how a credible and controlled study could even be designed to demonstrate “scientifically” that it is “blindingly obvious that the vast majority of people who think they have Morgellons have a variety of different problems”.
It seems that it’s okay for you to make presumptions, but not them.
“Even if he (Dr. Wymore) has discovered something new, it’s blindingly obvious that the vast majority of people who think the have Morgellons have a variety of different problems. He’s simply reinforcing their delusions, and is in significant part responsible for their mental state”. – Michael
So I take it, Michael, you are speaking on behalf of these Morgellons sufferers?
Are we to believe that the affect of Dr. Wymore’s claims and research on these people is the way you happen to personally be interpreting it?
Well, maybe the vast majority of Morgellons sufferers are actually grateful for Dr. Wymore’s acceptance that there exists some degree of credibility to their claims?
Maybe these Morgellons people, Michael, don’t WANT your concern for them, on their behalf?
But you know something, even if that were the case, I get the distinct impression you’d be the sort of person who’d be giving it regardless.
– Jules.
PS: My website, toxicworm.com, has a link attached to it, I think, in the last pages (page 5 or 6), connecting it to Dr. Klapow’s research. Atleast it’s connected to his morphological diagrams of the nematode in question. I think (though I’m not sure) there may be other links on his website that describe his controlled pilot study of the 200 CFS patients. Anyhow, it may be of interest to you to note that Dr. Klapow, himself, portrays the male of this species as a bright red organism (closely resembling a torn fibre)…..regards Jules.
Michael said…
Tall Cotton said…
You said a mouthful there, and every bit the truth!! How many people people will jump onboard the Morgellons bandwagon, believing they have an emerging disease of unknown etiology, then commit suicide because Wymore, and people like him, can’t come up with a cure for every skin disease in the world?
TC
Jules,
We’re not here to learn the truth!! We know the truth, and came to teach it to unconfirmed Morgies before they become fully brainwashed like you. You, and people like you, are a big part of a very, very, serious and dangerous movement. You’ve rejected the evidence, all logic, and common sense. You’re playing with people’s lives, and as far as Morgellons is concerned, your’e spreading a bunch of nonsense.
Tall Cotton
The point is, Jules, that you should apply the same standard of evidence, not that you use the exact same type of evidence. It’s blindingly obvious that they have a variety of different problems because they have ALL received a variety of different diagnoses from their doctors. I don’t know how more “clinical study” you can get that 50,000 medical examinations which all demonstrate the same thing.
95% are diagnosed as delusional, according to self-reporting at the Morgellons Research Foundation. All reports in the media indicate they have been diagnosed as delusional, with a variety of problems. Look at the most recent, a woman with a herniated navel is convinced it’s parasites.
Yet because there has not been a clinical study to show it’s not your particular new bug, you seem to suggest we should apportion a 50% possibility to it being behind Morgellons. Based soley on that what you (and just about only you) think is a new nematode that causes all disease looks a little bit like cotton.
Let me state it simply:
It is most likely they have a variety of problems because:
1) They have a wide range of different symptoms
2) They have been diagnosed with a wide range of medical conditions
3) There is no evidence they have anything physically in common.
Occam said “entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity”, but since Morgellons believers are unsatisfied with their diagnoses, that’s exactly what they do. They add an entity into the mix, just like you have done, without any necessity for that entity. If somehow it is shown not to exist, then they just move on to the next entity. That is never going to stop.
Jules, it’s clear that your theory is hard-wired, and that you’ve already dictated the typical “morgie command of silence” (which, I’m sorry, is so common, and so peculiar), so I won’t bring up Australian rickettsial infections. I won’t mention that people in communities, here, sometimes rush to emergency rooms by the droves, for no good reason, or that chronic fatique ain’t no big thang, in life’s large arena. But, concerning “morgellons disease”, how long since you first heard of it?
Oh, I just realized something. Julian, if you’ve just dropped in on Michael’ blog, my goodness, you definitely haven’t looked all the way back to the month of April, when he began his blog, and read his topics up to this point, or you surely wouldn’t be saying such things as you have to him.
I think this is the study that Jules was talking about.
Suspected New Species of Nematode Parasite in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)
Author: Lawrence A. Klapow Ph.D
http://www.members.tripod.com/lak123/
Jules,
I like your website. Especially the images – the red and blue, look rather familiar.
I prefer calling CFS plain old-fashioned being sick & tired. Anyone who’s got it hasn’t died from it. If a person lies around and wallows in it, they can expect to develop coronary artery disease, lowered immunity, and be worse off, all around, from inactivity. It all has to do with “attitude”.
Memorial list – ME/CFS/FM
http://www.nrg.com.au/~nrmecfs/memorialpage.htm
Preparing for Approaching Death
http://www.nhlcyberfamily.org/dying.htm
Palliative Care (an overview): Complete Knowledge of ‘The Art Of Dying’
Though we are all mortal and know that at some stage we have to face the prospect of death, it is often only when confronted with the eminent death of a loved one or dealing with a terminal diagnosis for ourselves that the topic comes out from the shadows.
Palliative care deals not only with the physical and emotional needs of those being cared for but must also address the fears and realities of what death really means. Knowledge and skills in this area therefore should not be limited to professional caregivers and the medical profession but everyone of us as we all will one day be faced with caring for a loved one or preparing ourselves for that inevitable journey.
Death can only be feared as long as it is not understood.
The Palliative caregiver can bring much more to those in their care than just helping them deal with their physical needs and discomfort. They can have the knowledge and skills to enable death to be anticipated peacefully and without fear.
The ‘Art of Dying’ is both astonishingly simple and extraordinarily complex and the palliative carer needs to understand a wide variety of aspects to this including,
http://www.palliative-care.com.au/overview.htm
CFS, in my opinion, is the last of the “somatization” disorders. Freud used to treat people for hysterical blindness, or lameness, and I think CFS is the same thing (minus the stigmatizing and sexist term “hysterical”). People with CFS tend to be extremely stressed, get little sleep, and are in heightned states of arousal. That would make ANYONE sick after a while.
The last? Hey, if you get worked up by the term “hysterical”, you should read Hystories by Elaine Showalter. I can’t remember if we discussed this before, but it is an interesting look at the history of the concept of hysteria, specifically from a feminist literary theory POV, but still interesting. Check out the reviews on Amazon, they feel very antimorgellony:
http://www.amazon.com/Hystories-Elaine-Showalter/dp/customer-reviews/0231104596
I do think it’s the last, well, maybe that’s a hyperbole. One of the last. While I agree that somatization occurs, and people sometimes translate their emotional distress into say, backaches or migraines, I see as the biopsychosocial approach furthers our understanding of health that we will move farther from diseases like CFS.
Thanks for the book suggestion. I’ll make it my winter break reading and write you a 12 page report, single spaced, APA style.
I’m sure some people don’t even wonder why others grow tired of being in their presence, and have to end up distancing themselves, too. This is a bit off-color, and not a very nice little story for me to be sharing, but, since we’re on the subject, here I go, anyway.
I’d mentioned before, that I once worked with a woman who had a whole lot of mental instability (understatement), and was forever running to different doctors, always receiving a clean bill of health. I’m sure we all know the type, on some level, but this woman was pure hell to be around. Well, another fellow worker’s husband was friends with, and went to, one of this woman’s primary care physicians. This lady said that when her husband had been to his doctor/friend’s office, that he had him take notice of the large amount of females out in the waiting room. Hehe, she said that the doctor told him they all showed up there, pretty regularly, with nothing ever wrong, other than that they all needed a good roll in the hay. (Oh, I can’t believe I said that. Sorry!)
Smiley, please try to stay on topic. This is the “All About Gillian, All the Time” blog, as you well know.
Oh wait.
Maybe you *were* on topic.
Oh, I hope I didn’t leave the impression those women showed up regularly to get the roll in the hay from the doctor!!! No, hehe, that wasn’t the case. If most morgie people had stuck with a good doctor, long enough, and worked with them (instead of “against themselves”), they’d get over what they think they have, one way, or another.
But, studies have shown that about half of the individuals with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder have acutely impaired self-awareness of their illness. There is no self-recognition of it, because their brain disease has affected the frontal-lobe circuits necessary for complete self-awareness. These individuals do not realize that the hallucinations, delusions, paranoia and withdrawal they are experiencing are in fact symptoms of their illness.
People with untreated serious brain disorders, who lack insight (aka “agonosia”, which prevents them from treating it), actually seem to really believe that the CIA implanted electrodes in their brains, or that death rays are shooting into their homes in an effort to control them. They are big subscribers to all the usual conspiracy theories we’re familiar with, as well as their own. Those conditions are obvious, and they’re listed as having been previously diagnosed in morgie people, along with other mental conditions they’d reported. They all seem to believe they can attribute everything to brainfog, caused by “morgellons disease”, though.
Could a person with a severe, untreated, mental illness correctly interpret, and seek treatment for, their real underlying physical conditions? I mean, just look at what a wide range of those, also, factor into “morgellons disease”. It’s sure a bad, bad, thing to fall under the belief of, but certain people sure appear to need it, due to being unable to accept reality, for whatever reasons are behind it.
Excuse me, I misspelled ANOSOGNOSIA, and I’ve just read that damage to the right hemisphere is involved.
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/Bipolar/treatment/compliance/anosognosia.asp
Primary Psychotic DOP & Secondary Functional DOP, covering psychological disturbances, and psychiatric conditions, are obviously what “morgellons disease” is for many people. I think more of them would grasp how to get out from under their false beliefs, if more of them had DOP due to a Secondary Organic cause. Not knowing anyone personally, one cannot tell why these people are stuck so firmly inside their delusions.
Books sounds very interesting. I just had a read of the comments from peole who have already read the book. I am interested in reading it, but I don’t think I really need to go backwards and get myself worked up for no reason.
I noticed in the comments reference to “the uterus”. Well given what I know about premenstrual syndrome I really don’t want to get into an argument with any professional about that. My menstrual cycles have always been “murder” since the day they arrived, what a nightmare.
I still can’t understand why woman have to go through so much pain with menstruation.
It is meant to be natural, isn’t it??
Smileykins said…
Tall Cotton said…
I wonder if that’s why I havn’t felt very good lately.
TC
I suffer from chronic fatigue, and my symptoms do fit under the “umbrella” of CFS.
I only get stressed when other people stress me. I am very happy in my own little world, trouble is I can’t survive in my own little world. No one understands.
I could sleep my life away at the moment. Could be this head cold, or whatever it is. Seems more like hayfever at the moment. My nostrils are burning, and my nose is like a tap. I take regular anti-histamine, but nothing seems to be working. That is why I think maybe a virus/cold as well, not sure?
I don’t really know what you mean Sarah about a heightened state of arousal, sorry.
My mental state is more delerious than anything. I am completely fogged out in the head.
Sarah, from a personal point of view, the “people” who are “translating” the emotional distress into say a backache or a migraine are the doctors.
The backache/pain and/or headache/migraine are very real.
I think that if a doctor doesn’t have an explanation for the patients presentatiing symptoms, he will diagnose “stress”.
What causes stress is the million dollar question.
Sarah I would love some feed back if you can help.
I have to say you know that being on my own is the best thing for me at the moment.
I can’t explain any of this stuff to my family, and I am not even going to try. I have to just sit back and stay calm. It is very hard to do. My family drain my energy, and I don’t understand why.
Putting on a brave face is also very hard to do, and personally I don’t think I should have to pretend. It is very important for me to be me.
I am going to miss Tony when he goes into hospital tomorrow for about 3 days, but I think I need some space. I am walking on egg shells around the house today. Tony is in frantic “clean up” mode. He has been able to curb his drinking for a couple days, prior to his hospital stay, of course.
He is like a bundle of nerves, running around hoofing and poofing. We have piles of washing from one end of the house to the other. And then I waddle through and nearly fall over them. I just walk around in circles like a dill some days. Trouble is I keep wetting myself.
So it really is hard to cope with the “ups” and “downs” in Tony’s moods. I know it is very tough for him, and I am so worried about his health. I just hate going up and down with his moods, sends me off the planet. I have to concentrate on “grounding” myself, and focusing on calm, otherwise I feel sicker.
I know that hospital is the best place for him at the moment. I am just concerned why the hospital are going to run a bunch of tests, a colonoscopy, gastroscopy etc. when he has been diagnosed with “cirrhosis” of the liver, liver disease, whatever. I am not sure really what the treatment is for liver disease. I thought the person was meant to obstain from alcohol first, and then to follow some sort of management plan with their doctor?? Beats me.
I will be taking him, and visiting him of course. I have promised him that I will follow up with the hospital staff to make sure they are going to give him some treatment, not just TESTS. Tony has a dangerously low platelet count, last check, was 35. This man needs platelets.
Brain Scans Validate Freudean View Of Hysteria
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_42411.html
ANOSOGNOSIA – I had a read of the link, sorry I can’t read too much today my eyes hurt.
Right hemisphere syndromes??
Sounds awfully familliar.
My Neurological problems are all the right side. My main scalp and head symptoms are my right side. The majority of the skin damage on my face (which is almost healed?) on my right side also.
The thing is though, I am aware that I am physically and mentally ill. I do exhibit mental disorders such as bipolar and schizophrenia, but I don’t quite fit societies view of a bipolar or schziophrenia. The only reason I say this is because the psychiatric medication doesn’t agree with me, and because no one has really given me any other explanation. I just guess these days, go with my gut.
SBD Said:
What are you saying, that somatization will still occur, but doctors will be able to identify it as somatization, and not lump it in a dustbin diagnosis like CFS?
Or are you saying CFS (et al) will go away because nobody believes in it anymore?
“Jules,
That must be a pyrotode, if it’s actually fire resistant, as Wymore and Staninger claim”.
– Tall Cotton
…….True. Like I said, there are inconsistencies between the concept of a nematode infection and what people have been reporting in relation to the Morgellons fibres. But there are also striking similarities (if the female C. Pulmoni is eventually proven to possess a deep blue pigment).
Silica is a natural component of hair, skin and nails. What I’d observed was a blue, fibrous object (re: toxicworm.com) with what appears to be 6 organically formed, silica-type “teeth”.
It’s possiblle an organism could have also evolved an outer membrane with an unusually high silica content to make it more resilient to the “rough n’ tumble” of an internal parasitic life. It’s possible that increased silica content could also make it relatively “fire resistant”.
Who knows? (You certainly don’t)
regards,
Jules.
Jules,
“We’re not here to learn the truth!! We know the truth, and came to teach it to unconfirmed Morgies before they become fully brainwashed like you. You, and people like you, are a big part of a very, very, serious and dangerous movement. You’ve rejected the evidence, all logic, and common sense. You’re playing with people’s lives, and as far as Morgellons is concerned, your’e spreading a bunch of nonsense”. – Tall Cotton
It could equally be said that some of the most dangerous people on this earth are the ones who categorically and unquestioningly believe they are the ones who “know the truth”. That’s why religious fundamentalists are so damned scary.
Perhaps, TC, you could be described as a “fundamentalist anti-morgellonite”?
Get over it. Not everyone on this earth is a lesser human being when they happen to hold a different view to yourself. With respect to the Morgellon’s issue – why not just wait and see what a little formal and coordinated scientific research turns up.
It may be that you’re right, but it also may be that you’re wrong. At the moment, you or I really don’t know.
Jules.
The schizophrenic that lived with me, twenty some odd years ago, tried medications that didn’t agree with him, too.
It’s called “patient/doctor communication”, same as it is for all of us. He didn’t hear voices back then, though. I don’t know who would buy, “I don’t quite fit societies view of a bipolar or schziophrenia”, Gillian, when you plaster thoughts all over the place that say differently.
A nematode with teeth? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I didn’t knowingly become involved with a victim of schizophrenia, who was also, it turned out, an alcoholic. Hehe (yes, I can laugh all these years later), meds can work wonders for such people sometimes. I lived (luckily), and I learned. I know with 100% certainty, Jules, that there is no such thing as “morgellons disease”, but there are a lot of mentally ill people who think that there is. Some are more seriously ill than others, but 95% of them have been diagnosed with delusions of parasitosis. Look at how many other delusions many of them have, as well.
Silica-like teeth? Silica is a component of teeth? Really, I always thought they were mostly calcium minerals?
While looking up Silica I came across this interesting snippet:
Who knows, perhaps Morgellons is caused by cheap drywall, who knows?
While I’m not totally down with “Whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent”, I think it does deserve some consideration from time to time.
There are an infinite number of possible theories that fit the facts. To deserve even mentioning, they need a certain level of evidence. I’ve got no evidence for my drywall theory, so thereof I shall be silent.
Yes, I know that some nematodes have teeth, but I didn’t know they were made out of silicon. HEHEHEHEH
TC
That’s exactly what I’d like to see happen. But it’s not. Statements are made and actions are taken without science. That’s what this blog is about – debunking baseless assertions that are damaging people’s health.
I’m for good science and good health. What are you after Jules?
I meant to say, “A nematode witn ‘silicon’ teeth??”
Some silica is in cosmetics, too, especially amorphous hydrated silica. It can be contaminated with small amounts of crystalline quartz, also. Crystalline silica is carcinogenic. It’s always recommended to wash make up off, and to never sleep in it, and that is just one reason why.
Some morgies have sarcoidosis, and they know that they do. Among different types of mineral exposure, applications of cosmetic products may induce disseminated granulomatous reaction on genetically predisposed patients.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15536384&dopt=Abstract
There is also an increased risk of sarcoidosis associated with agricultural employment and exposure to pesticides. Lots of morgies come into contact with clay products, and they also use talc powder on their lesions. That’s bad. But, that’s sarcoidosis, not “morgellons disease”.
Jules,
You are very confused. I do know, absolutely, that there is no such thing as Morgellons Disease. The Morgies are not suffering from anything new. I’m not a fundamentalist anti-morgellonite. I used to be a Morgie, and I have asked many, many, questions. The reasons for not waiting on the CDC should be obvious. I don’t want any more people to become brainwashed by the Morgellons Believers. It can be extremely dangerous to believe that Morgellons is a Disease, that the medical community is uneduated on the issue, and that the Morgies should self-medicate. Not all doctors are familiar with the word, Morgellons, but they are familiar with DOP. And that’s what it is, DOP. You get over it. I’ve been over it a long time.
TC
Could well be??
Old saying is “its” good for you.
I am not saying that you have a problem with impotence TC, your comment made me think of something. ie. All the fellows I know are constantly into the Viagra pills.
How does a women get a descent what’s it name these days??ha
We all know how so many morgies are convinced of chemtrails, too. Why, some claim to be targeted by them, and that they’re dying, even. Polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs), which these chemtrails are supposed to contain, are increasing rapidly in the environment and have been detected in human blood, fat tissue and breast milk. I think a more logical explanation for it, is that PBDEs have been widely used in consumer products, for years, because they’re effective flame retardants. Various things in our homes have them, including carpeting and upholstered furniture. This two year old exploratory study from researchers at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), link common house dust as a potential source.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/PBDE_dust.htm
What causes schziophrenia? Is it a only a mental illness? Does it effect any other part of the body, other than the brain?
I have my own theories on schziophrenia, I’d prefer to keep them my own too.
It it sad to think really, I told my doctor in all openness and honesty that I had experienced an episode of overwhelming anxiety, dry mouth, and then paranoid delusions afer taking high dose Flagyl in conjunction with high dose antibiotics. I then had to speak to my Pharmacist who has known myself and my family for a good 20 years. I explained the siutation with the Flagyl, and how my doctor just dismissed me, and the terrible paranoid delusions that I had had, and that I was actually aware of them happening, and how frightened I was. He told me to never take the Flagyl again,. Flagyl is a drug that can penetrate the brain. My pharmacist is a lovely guy. I know he wishes he could help me more. He gave me the name of a doctor that treats people who suffer from that Morganella organisms, I think it is called, you know like the severe thrush infections, particularly vaginal thrush in women. Anyway, I tried this doctor, but he had retired, so I was too late.
My Pharmacist did say however, that he doesn’t think I need any pharmaceutical drugs or as he put it (crap!!), just a good doctor.
The truth is though, I do need the pharmaceutical medication. Sort of like – “ya damned if ya do, and ya damned if ya don’t”.
For my allergies today I have had a 24 hour Claratyne tablet,then after a trip to the chemist, I took a Telfast 24 hour tablet, and some Benadryl for my cough.
My nose is still running, and red raw from blowing. Honestly I feel like I have a really bad flu. I could do with some match sticks for my eye lids. And as for the other 100 other symptoms, I have had to learn to adapt. I think that is why my brain has such a heightened state of awareness or illusion, whatever you wanna call it. The body needs to shift pain in some way.
Maybe the body shifts the pain into the brain ?? Why you ask?? The brain can’t feel pain (apparently)????
Add also to the recipe;
one internet connection
misinformation
disinformation
nasty people
bad people
very dangerous people
and all on the INTERNET
and ya home computer….
well that becomes entirely taken over.
We have already had one hard drive completely blown up on this home PC. Apparently it was the Dell Computers that had the problem. Yeah sure, I believe everything the media tell me, that is why I am in such great health now.
The sad thing for me now is that I remember, and I remember all the stuff that was lost from that computer hard drive, and it was ALL so very personal. Nothing illegal, family, friends, photos, my life, my friends lives,memories EVERTHING.
A lot of weird things happen on computers, and we get used to it, you know the computer rage and so on, but THIS is very different. Its kinda like someone back in time a few years ago was just waiting in the back ground for people to start putting certain terms into google ie. “hair like filament”, just a thought.
I have a broadband connection. So really I should have access at anytime with no problems. But I have problems accessing the internet of late, that is what is so weird. no explanation what so ever. Then I am forced to go through msn rather than google. Boy of boy it really shits me.
I have a shadow with me on the internet, is what I am trying to say.
It is like we have some sort of “technology plague”, it’s just creepy.
Hey, Jules?
Uh-oh. How dare you be such an ignorant fool as to say such a thing as that. Many people could be over this, and not even be morgie people, if they’d just done what their doctors told them to do. We have not called anyone lesser human beings. But, since you brought it up, what do you call it, when it comes to mothers not treating their mental illnesses, and ruining their poor little children? What about the people who neglect their pets, even to the point of death? Get your blinders off, and look around, Jules. People who think they have “morgellons disease” are the prejudice ones, who have the archaic views of mental illness, and won’t treat it. Many of them are full of bad attitudes and lots of hang ups. You have a good deal of fear that this blog is taking something away from “morgellons disease”, but, you can rest assured, that just isn’t possible. If you want to keep wasting your time and energy ordering us to be quiet about it, see how well it works. Coming onto a guy’s personal blog and thinking it’s okay to boss him, is awfully brazen. Morgie people have a record of talking real ugly to those of us who speak openly, as though WE are lesser human beings. Many of them do the same to anyone who posts anything resembling any degree of reasoning on their message boards, too, as well as deleting comments. In my opinion, people that get mad at anyone talking normal around them, label themselves pretty well as to what kind of person they are.
This also really stood out:
Michael has made his point, clearly, all along. He is not going off and dragging morgie people here, although they are welcome. There has needed to be something like his blog for years. With the advancement of “morgellons disease” in the media, he has provided a superb service to people who may hear of this and need to know the actuality of the situation. We all know that diehard people will remain that way. That’s fine, but it’s wrong to hurt others, because of it. Well, it is wrong for those injuring themselves, too, but they seem to need to do that, and some even seem to like it.
Now just live and let die, Jules.
I didn’t mean to order you to do anything, Jules, and I’d like to apologize. If anything, I should have only stated a suggestion. But, do you know what your motivation is for making false accusations, and telling others what to do?
A shrink is not someone to sit all prim & proper in front of, and report to. They are someone to tell all our private thoughts to, and get feedback from, guidance, and medications. It sounds about right, that someone with it, would have their very own theories on schizophrenia, and let it be the one thing they prefer to keep private.
Gillian, I think you probably believe that you are talking to your shrink about your problems, but based on what you say that you tell him, here, you’re not even touching near the tip of the iceberg. “Feelings” is what he needs to hear out of you, and about the voices & remote control programming. That is step one, towards getting better.
Michael says: What are you saying, that somatization will still occur, but doctors will be able to identify it as somatization, and not lump it in a dustbin diagnosis like CFS?
Or are you saying CFS (et al) will go away because nobody believes in it anymore?
I say that it will not be lumped into a dustbin like CFS, but will either be recognized as somatization or, the actual biological cause will be uncovered.
Yeah I agree, talking feelings is the way to go.
I just have to give my shrink a chance to get in touch with me. We have left messages etc. For all we know he could be out of the country at the moment, he travels a lot for his job.
Since it is only a week until christmas I think a good break at christmas time, and then hopefully I can catch up with him.
Thanks.
Michael – I hope you don’t mind me posting this link?
It is a link for the CDC Website. There are some really interesting articles, you know infectious diseases and parasites. Many other good links just like this one also, just click back and you’ll find em.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol10no5/03-1056.htm
“I’m for good science and good health. What are you after Jules?” – Michael
…I’m for the same thing. That’s why I think it’s worth waiting for what Dr. Wymore, whatsie-doodle, or the CDC demonstrate scientifically. It may be that you’re right. Still, it’s possible that you’re wrong. Let’s give “good science” a chance to investigate the claims fully, and then offer a detailed technical explanation as to why those scientists had arrived at such conclusions.
As for the “danger” of premature comments by whoever about Morgellons being a real disease: Well maybe to make such comments prematurely is potentially as irresponsible or dangerous as making such claims “prematurely” that it is not?
I can see we’ll probably never agree on this aspect. In fact, I can see myself repeating this line over and over – so maybe it’s best we both just agree to disagree, and call it quits.
I personally am just going to wait for the CDC findings. I’m interested in what they may or may not reveal. The “Morgies” are going to go on believing that they are suffering a real disease whether or not Dr. Wymore or anyone else says it is or isn’t a real disease.
As you know, I was branded as suffering “delusional parasitosis”, yet my claims (and micrographs) turned out to be srtikingly similar to findings by qualified invertebrate biologists working in conjunction with Harvard University. You can well suggest that the scientific dogma which these scientists were following is also the product of “delusional parasitosis”. In fact, you’re free to believe what you like. But for me, personally, the morphological diagrams and documented methods that were employed by Dr. Klapow in documenting “Cryptostrongylus Pulmoni” demonstrate are fair degree of rigorous and credible scientific protocol.
If I am suffering from DOP, then so must these qualified invertebrate biologists. If they aren’t, then it means I’m not, either. If I am not, then this is an example of how DOP can be hurriedly offered as a diagnosis in certain circumstances when dealing with a previously unknown species of parasite, yet later be proven to be grossly misguided and presumptuous.
To avoid such presumption, then perhaps it’s best to await a formal scientific investigation in regards to the Morgellons issue.
Anyhow, I’m going to luvs-yers-all-n’-leaves-yers. Thanx for the chitchat….good luck with it all…..Jer gharn Kaap….Chauti la Kh-a-a-a-ap! Sawadee Kha-a-a-ap!
Jules.
Oh…just one last suggestion: Has it ever occurred to Michaelllans, or Tall Cotton, or Smiliekins that this website may be really demonstrating a situation where the “anti-morgellonites” appear as neurotically obsessed with disproving Morgellons (or questioning the claims such as made by Dr. Wymore), as are the “Morgellonites” in trying to prove it?
Are you sure you people haven’t become as equally obsessed with this issue as those supposedly neurotic and delusional people who believe they are suffering a real disease called Morgellons?
If you have become obsessed with this issue, then maybe you, too, are as neurotic as you suppose the Morgellonites to be?
And if your interest in this issue is motivated by some underlying neurosis, then perhaps your views are to be questioned in the same way as you question the mental stability of the Morgellonites.
Perhaps your skepticism is merely the flip-side to the DOP coin?
(And now I’m sure you’d be as defensive about this allegation as those Morgellons are about their mental stability…hahaha)
Maybe the anti-morgellonites really have “other problems”, Michael, and by ranting and raving like this, you’re irresponsibly re-inforcing those poor, poor people’s obsessive skepticism?
regards,
Jules.
PS: that’s why I’m bowing out now. I don’t think all this conversation is probably the healthiest thing for one’s mind. I’m in Thailand, and there’s a whole fascinating culture out there to explore….starting with learning the language.
Jer gharn K-a-a-a-a-a-ap!!!!
…I haven’t yet learnt the Thai word for “nematode”….when I do, I’ll bet there’ll be a lot of Thais that wished I hadn’t…hahahahaha.
You are going to wait for the CDC, and at the same time maintain a web site that says there might be a “silent pandemic”, and that the system has failed because they have not properly considered your self-diagnosis of the cause of your CFS.
Jules, you seem to be just doing the same thing as the Morgellons believers – excitedly grasping at exotic and specious theories that (if true) would explain their chronic illnesses in a way that exonerates them of what they consider the stigma of mental illness, and simultaneously makes them medical pioneers and antiestablishment heroes.
Wait for the CDC, by all means. What exactly do you think they are doing? They are not even starting until next year, and then they are simply going to perform epidemiological studies to see if there is any statistical correlation between the believers.
Look, the CDC has been investigating CFS for years, and they still can’t decide it that’s a real syndrome either. You can’t wait for them to disprove Morgellons, since they never will. All they will do is say something like: “There is not enough evidence to indicate that Morgellons is a distinct disease. No evidence has been found to indicate involvement of fibers in disease. People claiming to have Morgellons generally have a number of physical and/or mental conditions“.
They will say that because that’s what the evidence indicates. That what I’ve said all along. Sure, there are many possible causes for disease, and sure, it’s possible that all these disparate people with their disparate symptoms MIGHT all have the same thing. But there is NO EVIDENCE that this is the case.
I’m for evidence based medicine, not “undisproved possibility based medicine”. Show me the evidence.
Jules,
Well, Jules, let’s see if you really go silent and wait. That also means that you remove your website, as Michael indicated. I doubt that you’ll do either one. The difference in you and us is that we don’t give a rat’s ass what the Morgies think about us, and I’m sure you are. We’re here for those would be Morgies that havn’t decided yet, if they swing this way, and if the do, we’ll have our change to show them why we believe what we believe. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. Take care of yourself.
Tall Cotton
Michael, How do I say this or explain??
Believers, victims, suffers, Morgollons wotevas, are literally drawn to a computer. Well I have anyway, my mind feels totally controlled, pre-programmed and remotely operated in some way.
I am not sure if this could be proven over the internet. Look I think quite possible, because my brain has felt as though it has been split 3 different ways for a while now, and all the different compartments, and filing systems, and administrators, and group leaders, and speakers are all in my head. My brain feels like it is going to fry.
Look I am very grounded and not hysterical over this. I have learnt to find a quiet place in my mind (you others will never reach ME entirely, it’s my brain).
But I must mention, I HATE IT HAPPENING!! I’m calm, just very tired, I can not sleep, I miss my friend.
Michael, can you tell me what you think of these links? I have read them, I am convinced it is possible.
http://www.sccn.ucsd.edu/VisionOverview.html
http://katahdin.cshl.edu:9331/html/scripts/main.pl
My god you know, if anymore money gets poured into research we are going to drawn in the goo.
And please also remember, it’s those naughty doctors that have got themselves all caught up with those frankensteins.
sorry, I meant to say Scientists.
With reference to what I mentioned in post #274. An Epidemiology study is not going to help those of us who are “hot wired” in the brain, and ping ponged around the medical community like some freak.
The technology war has to STOP.
I believe I am in a position to categorically state THIS is a technology war, and very sick and innocent citizens are hurting so bad from this. YES! We ALL have different diseases, but my goodness me there is some pathetic, evil forces at work out there.
Someone has to pull the “plug” on this crime. The electrical cords would be an excellent place to start. Too much messing with nature,science and technology. Well they have ALL disgraced the word “Science” I am absolutely appalled.
I feel better after getting that off my chest.
And if I don’t attempt sleep again, I am going to throw up.
Goodnight
Driving us insane!
Michael, look at me I am living proof. I haven’t even gone back to bed yet, the noise in my ears, you have NO idea.
You have been kind to me and I thank you, but I beg you Michael, this has to stop.
Your website is caught up in the cross fire of this technology plague and you are perpectuating the agonyyyy
WHY??
Because all those parasites on the internet come along to this blog site and feed off the entire contents, oh yes in deed, at my expense, my health and my LIFE.
Look you are a very reasonable man, and I really like the way you analyse things, which is so very important. Look how far I have come hey? Couldn’t have done it without ya.
I got another mister meaner for you.
You know Tony is in hospital, well they took 7 ampules of blood when he arrived. Then they returned later because apparently they had lost some. So they took 3 more ampules of blood. Oh then they found the missing blood, it was found sat on a window sill in the lab. But never mind coz now they got 10 ampules of blood. For what I have no idea. He has liver disease. What on earth are they looking for?
Then he was preped for a colonoscopy, which was drinking 3 litres of this fluid to clear out his entire gut, and colon. Then he had his antibiotic for his virus, and then they gave him 2 valium. So he has the colonoscopy in the morning and then they have to prep him for a gastroscopy so he still can’t eat. And I guess more pills.
Any wonder I am worrying about him. Tony is just as worried for himself trust me, he told on the phone. He ain’t silly, this is murder.
And then you ask me Michael “don’t I have something more constructive to do with my life?”
Well the truth is all over your blog site Michael – What life?
I’ll try and keep this brief, Jules. Disturbed people committing acts of self-abuse, child abuse and neglect, pet neglect (to the point of death), and all the other bizarre things we don’t normally hear about, is rather captivating. I don’t seriously believe that anyone who hears of “morgellons disease” for the first time, and identifies with it, or thinks they do, upon inspection of themselves for fibers, can fall under the belief unless…….
well, I think I’ve said enough for you to get my drift.
That doesn’t sound like anything out of the ordinary for inpatient testing. Try not to worry, if you can.
Gillian,
You need to get your mind off of your and Tony’s problems. The things you consider to be problems will never be solved by worry. You rehearse these things, over and over, and it’s tormenting to you.
Technology has its pros and cons. Scientists recently cured type I diabetes in a laboratory mouse. That is a great thing once they apply the technology to sick children. Technology is what has brought us antibiotics and vaccinations. Not only has the human lifespan been lengthened, but also the quality of life has improved for many people. There’s a new test for chagras disease. These are just a few examples. There are thousands. Try not to focus so much on the negative.
Tall Cotton
Really. Worry never, ever, changes the outcome of anything. All it is, is a complete, unpleasant, waste of time. And, so many morgies seem as though they are hoping we can go back to Little House On The Prairie days, or something. If all the technology in the world is worrying so many of these patients, it’d be nice if they’d realize that they are doing it to themselves, thinking they’re in need of trying to process information that they don’t need to, and can’t. Trying to explain anything, and calm their concerns, isn’t understood either. These are conditions that warrant a trip to a doctor of mental health. Untreated, no wonder they are so miserable, and unaccountable for their actions.
Gillian Says:
Heightened states of arousal is somewhat like anxiety. People often say they feel “revved up” and their heart beats faster, they produce more norepinephrine, are in a fight-or-flight response mode, but on a low-grade level for a long period of time. This can be devastating to your body, and make you sick because you will not get appropriate amounts of rest.
Gillian Says:
Of course the headache and backache are very real. But their causes are not from, say, strain, or a viral infection. It’s like when womyn have pre-menstural symptoms, they are hormonal and emotional, but often these translate into physical effects like headaches, backaches. Somatization is quite common, especially in Asian cultures. People very rarely report symptoms of depression, or anxiety, but report symptoms of backaches, headaches, sleeplessness, things like that. That’s somatization.
Wow!! Spot on for me, I have been that way my entire life.
Tell me Sarah, could this process damage the “adrenal” glands. Making them basically “useless” or not work at all??
The reason I ask, I saw a Psychologist some years ago, and she told me that constant severe anxiety can damage the adrenal glands. Personally I think there is a lot of truth in that. What do you think?
HERE I AM AGAIN DEFENDING A MORGIE . EVERY DAY I LOOK AT MY SKIN BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD THE MORGIE PARASITE, AND FOR TOO LONG SO THATS WHY I LOOK . FIBER IS FIBER ,LINT IS LINT , DIRT IS DIRT, BUT A BUG IS A FREAKIN BUG.. I AM A OUTDOOR PERSON , WE USED TO HIKE I RUN BARE FOOT I AM NOT AFRAID OF ANY THING ,BUT I DO KNOW ONE THING THESE THINGS THAT TRIED TO TAKE AWAY MY FAMILY ,MY PERSONALITY.MY JOB MY SELF ASTEEM,MY HOME,MY CAR, I AM FIGHTING BACK MAD.AND I AM TAKING CARE OF IT ,YOU COULD THROW 10O LINT BALLS ON ME 20 BUGS I DONT CARE, BUT WHEN SOMETHING MAKES A HOME INSIDE MY BODY ,IM COMING BACK FULL FORCE WITH A VENGENCE , MORGIES DONT JUST LOOK FOR LINT,DIRT,AND FIBERS BECAUSE WE HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO DO.THAT IS NOT THE CASE.